Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ A Future Millennium

[Ray]

Brother Fisher,
Daniel 9:24 is Clear that 70 weeks (490 years) are determined "to make an end of sins"
Which I believe was Done in JESUS' First Advent by the finished work of the Cross AFTER the 69th week which is the 70th.

But notice the beginning of verse 24 - the 70 weeks are determined "upon thy people and thy holy city". The prophecy of the 70 weeks pertains to the Jews. Their transgression, sin, and iniquity continue. Vision and prophecy regarding the Jews have not yet been sealed up. Their reconciliation to their Messiah has not yet taken place (except for a remnant who believe in our own time). As Paul teaches in Romans 9-11, the Jewish branch was broken off but will one day be restored. That time has not yet come, thus Daniel's prophecy has not yet been fulfilled for his people and his holy city of Jerusalem. You cannot simply ignore this part of the verse and come to a true understanding of the 70 weeks.

Brother Fisher, are you suggesting to forget the 490 Years of Daniel 9:24 and that it will be 1490 years "to make an end of sins".

Not at all; I have already explained in an earlier post today that the end of sins for Daniel's people and his holy city will happen at the second coming of Christ. The final few chapters of Zechariah speak to this fact. Jesus taught that His return to this earth would be at the end of the great tribulation spoken of by Daniel, which will be at the end of the 70th week or the completion of the 490 years.

Brother Fisher,
I want you to know that I am enjoying this conversation and picking your knowledge of The Scriptures.

Below is a verse I have heard many who are dispensationalist use to discribe a future Millennium, Is this verse a discription of a future Millennium in your understanding ?
Isaiah 65:17-20 KJV

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

[titus213]

Ray, I don't know how the verses you bring up below line up with dispensationalism, since I am not a dispensationalist.

In 1 Cor. 15 the first resurrection (the rapture) will take place “at His coming”. But notice that we are told "each in his own order” -- using the Greek military word for a platoon, and enumerating the sequence using the common Greek way of counting “first, second , and third”. So Christ is in the first "order" or platoon, next will come those who are His at His coming, and next the end. The text places a temporal space of time between these events, using the common Greek phrase epeita…eita (as in Mark 4:28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head). In other words, the word “then” which begins v.24 does not mean “at that time”. It is part of a sequence: first x, then y, then z.

No doubt Paul did believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved; but even Geerhardus Vos (amil theologian) admits that Paul did not believe they are raised at the same time. He points out that v. 22 means that just as all who were in Adam died, so all who are in Christ will be made alive. This section of Scripture doesn’t refer to the resurrection of the unsaved at all.

As for the repeated phrase "at the last day" in John 6: Don’t forget the teaching Jesus has just finished giving in John 5 – that there will be 2 resurrections, one unto life and another unto judgment (as Daniel 12.2 and Rev. 20 also teaches). The repeated expression “the last day” in John 6 has no bearing as to the question of two resurrections, since whether the rapture of the Church or the resurrection of the unbeliever later, both will happen at “the last day”. The first resurrection, the one Jesus said would be "unto life", will take place on the last day for those who are believers; the second resurrection, the one Jesus said would be "unto judgment", will take place on the last day for those who are unbelievers.

Once again, you need to be wary of doing “word studies” based on individual Greek words like “day” (hemera) or “hour” to determine what they mean in any given context. You need to see how the terms are actually used in the Bible. John tells us it is the “last hour” (1 John 2.18) but he obviously did not mean there were only 60 minutes left till the end of the world. Similarly, the “last day” or “last days” are terms used in the Bible commonly for something more than a 24-hour period of time, the last 24 hours of this world.

[bibleman]

This is a Question Concerning The Millennium, And I'm not "badmouthing" anyone So PLEASE don't Delete it Bibleman. And could you answer my question at the end of this post?

In Daniel 9:24 one of the six accomplishments to be done in the 70 weeks is "to make an end of sins"

As I have said in a previous thread this "end of sins" was in fact accomplished
by the Finished Work Of CHRIST in the 70th week, which is in the past.

Yet the Question was asked me several times (paraphrase) "How can there be "an end of sins" when there is still sin"?? Well in this previous thread I gave the answer as I interpret it as being.

Many here on this Forum (some pastors) Believe and teach that this "end of sins" will be accomplished in a yet future 70th week.

Question:
If this "end of sins" is made in a (believed and taught) future 70th week, How will there still be sin in a (believed and taught) future "Millennium" which is taught by many here to occur AFTER this 70th week that "an end of sins" is accomplished in ????

Hi Ray,

Get the book Revelation Expounded, by Dake.

It will answer all of your questions.

Read it and if after you read it you still have questions then we could talk.

Hello Bibleman,
If you will allow me, I will give the reasons why I cannot suscribe to any of Rev. Dakes Material just from some of the posts on this forum that contain the writings of Rev. Dake.

Hi Ray,

If you can't subscribe to any of Dake's teachings, then why are you here?

[Ray]

Ray, I don't know how the verses you bring up below line up with dispensationalism, since I am not a dispensationalist.

In 1 Cor. 15 the first resurrection (the rapture) will take place “at His coming”. But notice that we are told "each in his own order” -- using the Greek military word for a platoon, and enumerating the sequence using the common Greek way of counting “first, second , and third”. So Christ is in the first "order" or platoon, next will come those who are His at His coming, and next the end. The text places a temporal space of time between these events, using the common Greek phrase epeita…eita (as in Mark 4:28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head). In other words, the word “then” which begins v.24 does not mean “at that time”. It is part of a sequence: first x, then y, then z.

No doubt Paul did believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved; but even Geerhardus Vos (amil theologian) admits that Paul did not believe they are raised at the same time. He points out that v. 22 means that just as all who were in Adam died, so all who are in Christ will be made alive. This section of Scripture doesn’t refer to the resurrection of the unsaved at all.

As for the repeated phrase "at the last day" in John 6: Don’t forget the teaching Jesus has just finished giving in John 5 – that there will be 2 resurrections, one unto life and another unto judgment (as Daniel 12.2 and Rev. 20 also teaches). The repeated expression “the last day” in John 6 has no bearing as to the question of two resurrections, since whether the rapture of the Church or the resurrection of the unbeliever later, both will happen at “the last day”. The first resurrection, the one Jesus said would be "unto life", will take place on the last day for those who are believers; the second resurrection, the one Jesus said would be "unto judgment", will take place on the last day for those who are unbelievers.

Once again, you need to be wary of doing “word studies” based on individual Greek words like “day” (hemera) or “hour” to determine what they mean in any given context. You need to see how the terms are actually used in the Bible. John tells us it is the “last hour” (1 John 2.18) but he obviously did not mean there were only 60 minutes left till the end of the world. Similarly, the “last day” or “last days” are terms used in the Bible commonly for something more than a 24-hour period of time, the last 24 hours of this world.

Brother Fisher,
I totally agree that there is an order given in the verses of 1 Cor 15:23-24.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,

The First event the Resurrection of CHRIST the firstfruits,

The Second event to unfold the resurrection of those who are CHRIST'S it is Clearly given that this event takes place Only at the Time of HIS Coming whenever that would be.

The Third event Then (eita: next,after that) The end.
Next after HIS Coming The end .No events given inbetween HIS Coming and The end,

You said "It is part of a sequence: first x, then y, then z."
But thats not the way it is given it is first x, afterward y occurs only at the time of CHRIST'S Coming, then (next, after that) z.


I see John 5:28-29 Speaking of one and the Same anastasis (the resurrection)
John 5:28 speaks of "THE"( definite article) hour is coming, in the which ALL (good and evil) that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth (good and evil)

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

[titus213]

The First event the Resurrection of CHRIST the firstfruits,
The Second event to unfold the resurrection of those who are CHRIST'S it is Clearly given that this event takes place Only at the Time of HIS Coming whenever that would be.
The Third event Then (eita: next,after that) The end.
Next after HIS Coming The end .No events given inbetween HIS Coming and The end,

You said "It is part of a sequence: first x, then y, then z."
But thats not the way it is given it is first x, afterward y occurs only at the time of CHRIST'S Coming,
then (next, after that) z.

Right, that IS the sequence. The rapture occurs for those who are His at His coming. That is the next event in the sequence following His own resurrection. But the point is, the end does not happen at that time. It happens later, as the last part of the sequence. Therefore, the rapture of the Church is BEFORE the end. There are no events given between His coming and the end, but there are also no events mentioned in this verse between His own resurrection and His coming for those who are His, even though there obviously are events between them. Paul is just wanting to make sure we understand there is a sequence, an "order", to the events. Each part of the sequence is distinct and separate in time.

I see John 5:28-29 Speaking of one and the Same anastasis (the resurrection)
John 5:28 speaks of "THE"( definite article) hour is coming, in the which ALL (good and evil) that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth (good and evil)

But v.29 specifically delineates two resurrections, not one. It does not say that at that time some will come forth to life and others to damnation, but that some will come forth to "the resurrection of life", while others will come forth to "the resurrection of damnation". This is not a single, general resurrection. These are two distinct resurrections.
The fact that both are said to occur in "the hour" which is coming is not a problem when we recall that for John, the "last hour" has already lasted for nearly 2000 years (1 John 2.18). It is an expression pretty much equivalent to "the last days".

[Ray]

The First event the Resurrection of CHRIST the firstfruits,
The Second event to unfold the resurrection of those who are CHRIST'S it is Clearly given that this event takes place Only at the Time of HIS Coming whenever that would be.
The Third event Then (eita: next,after that) The end.
Next after HIS Coming The end .No events given inbetween HIS Coming and The end,

You said "It is part of a sequence: first x, then y, then z."
But thats not the way it is given it is first x, afterward y occurs only at the time of CHRIST'S Coming,
then (next, after that) z.

Right, that IS the sequence. The rapture occurs for those who are His at His coming. That is the next event in the sequence following His own resurrection. But the point is, the end does not happen at that time. It happens later, as the last part of the sequence. Therefore, the rapture of the Church is BEFORE the end. There are no events given between His coming and the end, but there are also no events mentioned in this verse between His own resurrection and His coming for those who are His, even though there obviously are events between them. Paul is just wanting to make sure we understand there is a sequence, an "order", to the events. Each part of the sequence is distinct and separate in time.

I see John 5:28-29 Speaking of one and the Same anastasis (the resurrection)
John 5:28 speaks of "THE"( definite article) hour is coming, in the which ALL (good and evil) that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 and shall come forth (good and evil)

But v.29 specifically delineates two resurrections, not one. It does not say that at that time some will come forth to life and others to damnation, but that some will come forth to "the resurrection of life", while others will come forth to "the resurrection of damnation". This is not a single, general resurrection. These are two distinct resurrections.
The fact that both are said to occur in "the hour" which is coming is not a problem when we recall that for John, the "last hour" has already lasted for nearly 2000 years (1 John 2.18). It is an expression pretty much equivalent to "the last days".

Brother Fisher,

Are we to interpret "the end " in 1 Cor. 15:24 to be a different "the end" than in the verses presented after it ? As it is clear to me that all these verses that mention "the end" speak of the time of the Rapture of the Saints.

1 Corinthians 15:24
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.


Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
{Must we endure until the Rapture or a Seperate Second Coming or a future millennium?}


Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
{We are of The House Of CHRIST, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the Rapture or a Seperate 2nd Coming or after a future Millennium?}


Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
{steadfast until the Rapture or a seperate Second Coming or after a future millennium?}


Hebrews 6:11
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
{ They desire that everyone of us do shew the same diligence to the full
assurance of hope until the Rapture or a seperate Second Coming or a future Millennium?}


It is Clear that at the Rapture is "the end" the restitution of all thing as is given in 1 Cor 15 :22-28.

{restitution: apokatastasis: restoration of a True Theocracy,as the perfect state before the fall}

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

[titus213]

Hi Ray,

I must be doing a really bad job of communicating my point regarding 1 Cor. 15.

But before I try again, allow me to point out another fallacy of Bible interpretation you are falling into: the use of a term (like "the end") in one place does not define what it means in another place, UNLESS THE CONTEXT IS THE SAME. It is invalid to collect places where any term is used and just jump to the conclusion that in all places the term must mean the same thing and/or refer to the same thing.

Now, let me try explaining 1 Cor 15 again. This passage is just as strong a text teaching the pre-millennial view of two resurrections as Rev. 20.5 is in that book.

I Corinthians 15: 22 begins that just as “…in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” with the qualification, “but each in his own order.” The Greek word for “order” is a military term (Tagmati), meaning “rank,” “squad,” or “platoon.” So all are resurrectible, i.e., they can “be made alive,” but only in distinct orders, squads, platoons, or divisions. This text lists three such squads:

(1) [vs 23] “Christ, the firstfruits,” [at the first Easter morning]
(2) “then, when he comes for those who belong to him,” and
(3) [vs 24] “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power”.

The most important matter to note is that Christ’s resurrection sets the pattern for the two resurrections that are to follow. It is also important to note that there is a temporal space of time between the resurrections as indicated by the word “then,” which in Koine and Classical Greek is represented by the words that always go together: epeita …. eita, (“then …. Then).” These two are routinely found together in Greek to represent a time period between events. This is also exactly what the apostle John indicates in Rev 20, though he is more specific as to the time period, labeling it as a “thousand years.”

So what it clear is that the end does not come with #2 above, but with #3. According to Paul and the way he has set up this passage in Greek, just as there is a temporal space of time between #1 and #2, there is a temporal space of time between the rapture in #2 and the end when the kingdom is handed over to the Father in #3.

Daniel 12 also indicates two resurrections, and not just a general one.

The apostle Paul writes "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." (Phil 3.10-11). If Paul had believed in just a "general" resurrection in which everyone would be raised, he wouldn't talk about hoping to "attain" to the resurrection. (Not to mention the literal meaning of the unusual word he uses in this passage: the "out-resurrection" from among the dead).

The teaching of two resurrections is thus confirmed from both Testaments. Daniel, Jesus, Paul and John all reveal this truth. But I see that you have begun a new thread for this topic; hopefully others will be able to communicate with you regarding this better than I have been able to.

[titus213]

By the way . . .

The main reason I am a premillennialist is not because of what's taught in Revelation or anywhere else in the New Testament; I became a convinced premillennialist as a result of my study of the Old Testament while in grad school. Pre-millennialism is defined not only as the future period in the the kingdom of God -- bounded by the resurrection of all believers on the front end and the resurrection of the unbelieving wicked dead on the opposite end -- during which Satan is bound, then loosed for a brief time at the end of the millennium. It is also the time when God finishes in space and time what he promised historically to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David. It is therefore a whole philosophy of history.

The word of promise to Abraham (Genesis 12:2 – 3) had three parts: (1) the promise of a Seed, the coming Messiah, (2) the promise of the land as a gift to Israel, but owned by God, and (3) the promise of the “Gospel” in which all the families of the earth would be blessed (Paul equated this aspect of the promise with the “Gospel” in Galatians 3:8).

It's impossible to read, teach, and preach on the prophets of the Old Testament without bumping into the recurring promise of a return of Israel to her land, something like one verse out of every eight verses in the prophets!! This restoration of national Israel and its implications for the meaning of modern history and our current culture are key to why premillennialism is important.

[Ray]

Hi Ray,

I must be doing a really bad job of communicating my point regarding 1 Cor. 15.

But before I try again, allow me to point out another fallacy of Bible interpretation you are falling into: the use of a term (like "the end") in one place does not define what it means in another place, UNLESS THE CONTEXT IS THE SAME. It is invalid to collect places where any term is used and just jump to the conclusion that in all places the term must mean the same thing and/or refer to the same thing.

Now, let me try explaining 1 Cor 15 again. This passage is just as strong a text teaching the pre-millennial view of two resurrections as Rev. 20.5 is in that book.

I Corinthians 15: 22 begins that just as “…in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” with the qualification, “but each in his own order.” The Greek word for “order” is a military term (Tagmati), meaning “rank,” “squad,” or “platoon.” So all are resurrectible, i.e., they can “be made alive,” but only in distinct orders, squads, platoons, or divisions. This text lists three such squads:

(1) [vs 23] “Christ, the firstfruits,” [at the first Easter morning]
(2) “then, when he comes for those who belong to him,” and
(3) [vs 24] “Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power”.

The most important matter to note is that Christ’s resurrection sets the pattern for the two resurrections that are to follow. It is also important to note that there is a temporal space of time between the resurrections as indicated by the word “then,” which in Koine and Classical Greek is represented by the words that always go together: epeita …. eita, (“then …. Then).” These two are routinely found together in Greek to represent a time period between events. This is also exactly what the apostle John indicates in Rev 20, though he is more specific as to the time period, labeling it as a “thousand years.”

So what it clear is that the end does not come with #2 above, but with #3. According to Paul and the way he has set up this passage in Greek, just as there is a temporal space of time between #1 and #2, there is a temporal space of time between the rapture in #2 and the end when the kingdom is handed over to the Father in #3.

Daniel 12 also indicates two resurrections, and not just a general one.

The apostle Paul writes "that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." (Phil 3.10-11). If Paul had believed in just a "general" resurrection in which everyone would be raised, he wouldn't talk about hoping to "attain" to the resurrection. (Not to mention the literal meaning of the unusual word he uses in this passage: the "out-resurrection" from among the dead).

The teaching of two resurrections is thus confirmed from both Testaments. Daniel, Jesus, Paul and John all reveal this truth. But I see that you have begun a new thread for this topic; hopefully others will be able to communicate with you regarding this better than I have been able to.

Hello Brother Fisher,
I think you are doing an excelent job of communicating your point regarding 1 Cor.15, given your believed Doctrine and what is presented in 1 Cor.15.

You make mention that I am taking things out of context in the grouping of these verses. How ?

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his order: Christ the firstfruits;afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

I understand the order you speak of dealing with 1 Cor.15:22-24.
Vs.23 speaks of CHRIST's Resurrection,afterward a time of those who are CHRIST's will be Resurrected which occurs at HIS Coming.Hence, HIS Coming is
the same time we must endure till to be saved,HIS Coming is the same time we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm until, HIS Coming is the same time if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast until,HIS Coming is the same time they desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until.
Vs.24 THEN THE END (paraphrase) when ALL enemies are destroyed including death (no 7 years of tribulation where mankind dies) then shall JESUS be subject to HIM that had put all things under HIM, That GOD may be all in all.

1 Cor. 15:22-28 Speaks of an order until the JESUS' Coming (Rapture) "then the end" of this age, after the language is speaking of the leading up to Eternity.


The verses I have presented below speak of What we as Saints must do until HIS Coming (the Rapture) yet the verses below do not speak of eita: next, after HIS Coming (the Rapture) As that is Clearly given in 1 Cor.15:22-28

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Hebrews 3:6
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 6:11
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

[Ray]

Ray, I don't know how the verses you bring up below line up with dispensationalism, since I am not a dispensationalist.

In 1 Cor. 15 the first resurrection (the rapture) will take place “at His coming”. But notice that we are told "each in his own order” -- using the Greek military word for a platoon, and enumerating the sequence using the common Greek way of counting “first, second , and third”. So Christ is in the first "order" or platoon, next will come those who are His at His coming, and next the end. The text places a temporal space of time between these events, using the common Greek phrase epeita…eita (as in Mark 4:28 For the earth yields crops by itself: first the blade, then the head, after that the full grain in the head). In other words, the word “then” which begins v.24 does not mean “at that time”. It is part of a sequence: first x, then y, then z.

No doubt Paul did believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the unsaved; but even Geerhardus Vos (amil theologian) admits that Paul did not believe they are raised at the same time. He points out that v. 22 means that just as all who were in Adam died, so all who are in Christ will be made alive. This section of Scripture doesn’t refer to the resurrection of the unsaved at all.

As for the repeated phrase "at the last day" in John 6: Don’t forget the teaching Jesus has just finished giving in John 5 – that there will be 2 resurrections, one unto life and another unto judgment (as Daniel 12.2 and Rev. 20 also teaches). The repeated expression “the last day” in John 6 has no bearing as to the question of two resurrections, since whether the rapture of the Church or the resurrection of the unbeliever later, both will happen at “the last day”. The first resurrection, the one Jesus said would be "unto life", will take place on the last day for those who are believers; the second resurrection, the one Jesus said would be "unto judgment", will take place on the last day for those who are unbelievers.

Once again, you need to be wary of doing “word studies” based on individual Greek words like “day” (hemera) or “hour” to determine what they mean in any given context. You need to see how the terms are actually used in the Bible. John tells us it is the “last hour” (1 John 2.18) but he obviously did not mean there were only 60 minutes left till the end of the world. Similarly, the “last day” or “last days” are terms used in the Bible commonly for something more than a 24-hour period of time, the last 24 hours of this world.

Brother Fisher,

at the end of your above post you speak of the word "day" and my comments on "the Last day" mentioned in John 6:39,40,44,54 Jn 11:22 and Jn 12:48.

As you know through you studies of the Greek Language,There are several words in the Greek Language for the English word "day" but the word "day" used in the passages I presented is the greek word "hemera" and has the meaning of a Literal 24 hour day.