Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ ANOTHER PRE-TRIB ARGUMENT

[Justaned]

Here's another argument for the air-tight pre-trib paradigm. Why would God only seal the 144,000 Jews during the tribulation and not seal the Church unless the Church was no longer on earth??

First you make an assumption that the 144,000 are the only ones sealed perhaps others that are sealed aren't mentioned.

Second you make the assumption is an actual number. Why would God only choose 12000 from every tribe. Why not 10000 or 20000 or 100000?

Or is a composite number like 12 for the 12 tribes and 12 for the 12 apostles times 1000 meaning a large number? 12x12 = 144 144x1000 = 144000

Since all indications of the marking take place sometime after the trib starts why can we have a mid trib or pre wrath rapture instead of a pre trib rapture?

Is this sealing an actually sealing or it a metaphor for protection of the Holy Spirit that protects the virgin bride of the Lamb?

Lastly would God be wrong if he only sealed 144,000 Jews and let everyone else go through the tribulation. He left the early church go through the tribulation of Rome. God has allowed many of His servants go through tribulation that most of us can't even imagine. Saints have had to watch their sons, daughters, wives, and mothers brutalized, tortured, raped, humiliated, abused and mistreated and then had to suffer deaths of agony some lasting as long as days where men went mad out of their minds by what they experienced and we American Christians are sure God will protect us.

Why take living Christians in the rapture but allow early christians to light the gardens of Nero with their flaming bodies? How is that fair?

[Justaned]

Here's another argument for the air-tight pre-trib paradigm. Why would God only seal the 144,000 Jews during the tribulation and not seal the Church unless the Church was no longer on earth??

First you make an assumption that the 144,000 are the only ones sealed perhaps others that are sealed aren't mentioned.

Second you make the assumption is an actual number. Why would God only choose 12000 from every tribe. Why not 10000 or 20000 or 100000?

Or is a composite number like 12 for the 12 tribes and 12 for the 12 apostles times 1000 meaning a large number? 12x12 = 144 144x1000 = 144000

Since all indications of the marking take place sometime after the trib starts why can we have a mid trib or pre wrath rapture instead of a pre trib rapture?

Is this sealing an actually sealing or it a metaphor for protection of the Holy Spirit that protects the virgin bride of the Lamb?

Lastly would God be wrong if he only sealed 144,000 Jews and let everyone else go through the tribulation. He left the early church go through the tribulation of Rome. God has allowed many of His servants go through tribulation that most of us can't even imagine. Saints have had to watch their sons, daughters, wives, and mothers brutalized, tortured, raped, humiliated, abused and mistreated and then had to suffer deaths of agony some lasting as long as days where men went mad out of their minds by what they experienced and we American Christians are sure God will protect us.

Why take living Christians in the rapture but allow early christians to light the gardens of Nero with their flaming bodies? How is that fair?

Ed, have you not learned anything from our Honorable Doctor Dake? Take all scripture literally if at all possible. At a certain point in time before the trumpet judgments God will seal 144,000 Jews who have accepted Christ and take them to Heaven as seen in C. 14. Two thirds will be killed and many will flee to the wilderness where God will protect them until His return when all Israel will be saved, Rom. C.11:26.

How does all of that prove a pre trib rapture? Again what happens if there are 144001 most excellent spiritual virgins why only seal 144,000 what about the one left out. He was exactly that same as the other 144000.

I believe you have to take scripture literally where you can but you must also ask yourself is this an exact number or arbitrary.

Besides you said all Jews are Satan's henchmen why would God use the Jew to be sealed.

[Ray]

Here's another argument for the air-tight pre-trib paradigm. Why would God only seal the 144,000 Jews during the tribulation and not seal the Church unless the Church was no longer on earth??

First you make an assumption that the 144,000 are the only ones sealed perhaps others that are sealed aren't mentioned.

Second you make the assumption is an actual number. Why would God only choose 12000 from every tribe. Why not 10000 or 20000 or 100000?

Or is a composite number like 12 for the 12 tribes and 12 for the 12 apostles times 1000 meaning a large number? 12x12 = 144 144x1000 = 144000

Since all indications of the marking take place sometime after the trib starts why can we have a mid trib or pre wrath rapture instead of a pre trib rapture?

Is this sealing an actually sealing or it a metaphor for protection of the Holy Spirit that protects the virgin bride of the Lamb?

Lastly would God be wrong if he only sealed 144,000 Jews and let everyone else go through the tribulation. He left the early church go through the tribulation of Rome. God has allowed many of His servants go through tribulation that most of us can't even imagine. Saints have had to watch their sons, daughters, wives, and mothers brutalized, tortured, raped, humiliated, abused and mistreated and then had to suffer deaths of agony some lasting as long as days where men went mad out of their minds by what they experienced and we American Christians are sure God will protect us.

Why take living Christians in the rapture but allow early christians to light the gardens of Nero with their flaming bodies? How is that fair?

Brothers,
I believe The Scriptures teach that all who have accepted CHRIST are Sealed, through out the Church age.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

[Ray]

Here's another argument for the air-tight pre-trib paradigm. Why would God only seal the 144,000 Jews during the tribulation and not seal the Church unless the Church was no longer on earth??

Dolph,
Are we to take The Signs and Symbols given to The Apostle John in his visions of The Revelation (unveiling) Of JESUS CHRIST to the Church as all being literal? I think we would all agree that the Apostle John was filled with THE HOLY SPIRIT. Yet he writes he "was in The SPIRIT" in Rev 1:10 and 4:2. Should we not expect Spiritual Language to be used by One who is in The SPIRIT ?

Rev 7:4
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Those who attempt to read Revelation as literal must say that this means that only literally 144,000 Jews are converted. But this number is used elsewhere, and is understood to be symbolic . The root numbers of 144,000 are quite obviously the numbers 10 and 12. The number 10 and it's multiples (100, 1000, etc) are the numbers of fullness. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheep with one going astray, or the 1000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 is illustrative of the Congregation of the LORD, as seen in the Old Covenant 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant 12 Apostles. 1000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fulness of those children of GOD who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of GOD from all tribes, as also illustrated in the perfect City of Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:16
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

Moreover, there are peculiarities that should readily alert us to the fact that this 144,000 is not the tribes of earthly Israel. First of all, we've seen symbolism all throughout Revelation, and why would GOD suddenly have this chapter to be curiously understood to be taken as being literal, in the midst of all this symbolism? It makes no sense whatsoever.

Secondly, those sealed are said to be made up all the tribes of Israel, and yet all the literal tribes of Israel are not listed. This is because this is Spiritual Israel, an Israel in CHRIST, not the nation in the middle east.
Are these literally the twelve sons of Jacob? How could they be? The ten northern tribes had already been lost for centuries when John wrote. Dan is not mentioned here, nor is Ephraim Yet Joseph which includes both Ephraim and Manasseh is listed. If these are understood as literal tribes, it would mean that exactly the same number would be saved from each one. It would also have to mean that none will be saved from the tribe of Dan. "The 144,000 must represent the whole church of the New Testament as spiritual Israel."

Thirdly, the number 144,000 is 12000 times the 12 tribes, signifying the measured congregation of the LORD'S Chosen. 12 is the number of the Church, both seen in the Old and New Covenant. And each tribe here has "exactly" 12,000 sealed, which is yet another indication of the spiritual signification, as also seen in the City of GOD.

Revelation 21:12-17
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel."

The City of GOD is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence anymore than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence anymore than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of GOD. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the middle east, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in the Israel which is CHRIST. Not a worldly Israel, but a heavenly habitation of GOD. This Israel is also illustrated in revelation chapter 14.

Revelation 14:1-5
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God."

Here GOD tells us clearly who these 144,000 represent. The body of CHRIST are those who stand on Mount Zion with this LAMB and all have the FATHER'S Name written in their foreheads. All part of a New Covenant with Israel, which is not an earthly nation, but spiritual agreement or promise, which is something far superior. As also seen in Hebrews chapter 12.

Hebrews 12:22-24
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

This is the heavenly Jerusalem, the City of GOD which is 12,000 furlongs and the wall of which is 144,000 cubits. Quite obviously a Spiritual City made up of all those in CHRIST. Hebrews tells us, "this" is the City which those who are sealed have come unto. "This" is the Mount Sion that the New Covenant signifies, it's not just literally 12,000 each, or 144,000, but an innumerable company of messengers. We are the Children of GOD. Jew, Greek, or Roman, we are all "one" in CHRIST. He has broken down that middle wall of partition which separated Jew and Gentile, and has reconciled both as one unto GOD. There is no separate New Covenant with an Israel of Jews and a New Covenant with the Israel of Gentiles, there is only "one" New Covenant, and one mediator, which is CHRIST! Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 make that abundantly clear, if we will receive it. It is the whole congregation of GOD.

Revelation 14 speaks of this Chosen people, these Children of GOD, this Israel of GOD. They alone sing the new song, and none but these can learn it. It is none but the Chosen of GOD who are the ones Revelation says were redeemed from the earth. By the New Covenant Redeemer, who is CHRIST!

Luke 1:68
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,"
Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Hebrews 9:15
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the New Covenant, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first Covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

The First Covenant with who? Israel of course, and the New Covenant of this redemption is likewise with Israel. All in CHRIST, are that Israel redeemed from their sins by this mediator of the New Covenant.

Likewise, these are they which are undefiled by women. Revelation is again using symbolic language to signify that these are virgins, who have not fornicated (spiritually) with the great harlot. Just as in the parable of the 10 virgins. And we are the only ones who follow the LAMB (CHRIST) wherever He goes. It is the Church which are the only firstfruits unto GOD. There cannot be two firstfruits. CHRIST is the firstfruit, and we (the body of CHRIST) are the firstfruits, in Him. Likewise, only those redeemed by the blood of the LAMB can be spoken of as "in their mouth is no guile," and only the Church is without fault before GOD! All these things spoken about of these 144,000 who are sealed, apply to the body of CHRIST alone. No one "but" those in CHRIST qualify, and additionally, all those in CHRIST qualify.

1st Corinthians 1:7-8
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
In order to be blameless, these sealed must be those who are in Christ! Man dreamed vain genealogies notwithstanding, Christ is not divided!

Galatians 3:28
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

And so where is the mystery about this 144,000 redeemed from the earth?
The 12 tribes of Israel here are a synonym for the Children of GOD, or the Church, just as the 12 Apostles represented the Children of GOD or the Church. Redemption comes only by the cross, and all those redeemed by the cross are one body, called Christians. They have one head, which is CHRIST! These 12,000 of each tribe, 144,000 strong, are the Israel of God redeemed by the cross from all tribes or families. This is confirmed in Revelation chapter 22:

Revelation 22:3-4
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and His servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and His name shall be in their foreheads."

Again, where is the mystery? These 144,000 with the name of GOD in their foreheads represent the fullness of the Israel of GOD. It is all those in CHRIST (Israel). In order for there to be a sealing from "all the tribes of the Children of Israel," this has to be understood spiritually. For there can be no question but that the Church is the sons of GOD, the seed of Abraham, the Chosen people, the Elect, the special or peculiar people, the Holy nation, the kingdom of Priests, and the branches of the Olive Tree, right along with the Jews! They are part of this New Covenant with Israel in CHRIST, just as physical Jewish people who accept CHRIST are.

[Justaned]

The 144,000 are Jews that will be saved and sealed during the Tribulation, raptured in C. 12 as the Manchild and seen in Heaven in C.14.

New Jerusalem, in Heaven, is approx. 1400 x 1400 x 1400 miles and will come down to Earth after the Millennium, probably a pyramid in shape, home of the Saints.

Ray made a very interesting statement above, about how new Christians are sealed. That's what will happen to the 144,000 Jews in C.7.

Dolph
You offer no rebuttal no logic you simply repeat what you repeat.
Why is some of Revelation literal and other sections not.
Peter says in the end the earth will be consumed with fire yet you insist the New Jerusalem will come down to earth.

2 Peter 3:6-7 (NKJV)
6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water.
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Where is the mortal millennium humans kept while the fire consumes the earth, and new earth is constructed?

Also if the New Jerusalem is 1400 miles high all of nature has to change because we know there is no oxygen that high, an object that big and high would effect the rotation of the earth.

Those facts alone has to tell us we don't know something. And if we take it as literal we are building something that isn't right because we don't have all the facts.

[Ray]

We, The Church will be the New Jerusalem.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[Justaned]

We, The Church will be the New Jerusalem.

1 Peter 2:5
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:9-10
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Interesting thought, since many think the redeemed of the Lord is the Bride and Revelation calls the New Jerusalem the bride.

[Justaned]

Ed wrote, Interesting thought, since many think the redeemed of the Lord is the Bride and Revelation calls the New Jerusalem the bride.

New Jerusalem is a city in Heaven where the Bride resides which will come down to earth at the end of the millennium.

Actually Rev says the New Jerusalem is the bride.
Revelation 21:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife."
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

[Justaned]

New Jerusalem is a city and the Bride of Christ which includes the Church and all the various companies of Saints.

YOu stand in opposition to Dake and to scripture on this.

[Justaned]

Wrong again Ed, I got it straight from Dake's Revelation Expounded, p.303.

Sorry I based my response on information gotten in this thread and past discussions, obviously it was wrong. Therefore I was wrong on Dake's position on this subject and I'm sorry.