I never provided a quote that saidfatherfisher wrote:"Oh so God foreknew but had to stand as bemused spectator and watch? Come on we are talking about God who was able to create all from nothing, to bring life to dust and created the cosmos and all that we can imagine.
Of course God's hand was in Joseph's story or else the story of Joseph is nothing more than good reading. Why do you think the story is in the Bible?"
Did I say God was just a bemused spectator? Or that his hand was not in the story of Joseph? You keep placing words in my mouth which I didn't say - usually a sign of desparation, in my experience. What I object to (from the quotes of writers which YOU opened up this discussion with) is their statements about God being the one who controls all that happens in such a way that his plan can never be thwarted, and that he in fact has pre-determined the decisions and actions of man. These ideas are clearly contrary to the Bible, which is why I object to them so strongly.
So according to your view, did God actually bring about the jealousy of Joseph's brothers which caused them to sin by selling him into slavery? Did he bring about the arrogance of Joseph which led him to sin against his family? Did he cause a woman to tempt Joseph with sexual sin? The story shows how God can take the sinful decisions and actions of man and bring about good from such things. But it surely does not (and indeed cannot) show us a God who has determined those sinful decisions and actions in advance and then has made sure people carried out his "sovereign" plan.
As I mentioned some time back in another discussion, can God be so sovereign that he is sovereign even over his own sovereignty? Of course, the answer is yes. So I am willing to acknowledge that God is even more sovereign than you seem to think he is. But he will not act contrary to his nature -- to who he is -- so he does not have to control all things the way Sproul and the other guy you quoted have said.
"Scripture is not about man it is about God with man playing a bit part. God is sovereign and God transcend time (can see the past, present and future) because God created and controls time. Joseph was a humble servant of the Lord, that God used to save the Nation of Israel and give it a place to grow into a mighty nation. He then lead them from Egypt to land God had given to Abraham."
Gosh, I must have missed the "man playing a bit part" section of the Bible. That's a pretty warped view of how God sees man, I'm afraid. It's too bad that someone forgot to let Jesus know that he was coming to man's world to die for mere bit players in God's grand "sovereign" scheme of things.
That is the conclusion you reach when you try to reason out God's sovreignty using man's understanding. God has repeatedly told us His ways are not man's ways. We can't full understand God sovreignty because it goes beyond what we are capable of accomplishing ourselves.What I object to (from the quotes of writers which YOU opened up this discussion with) is their statements about God being the one who controls all that happens in such a way that his plan can never be thwarted, and that he in fact has pre-determined the decisions and actions of man.
This statement here proves your inability to understand God sovereignty. We both agree God woould never act contrary to His nature. I believe God is able to be total control and still do that. You don't think that is possible for even God.So I am willing to acknowledge that God is even more sovereign than you seem to think he is. But he will not act contrary to his nature -- to who he is -- so he does not have to control all things the way Sproul and the other guy you quoted have said.
Do you object to being a bit player or do you object to being little more than that when compared to God? No play, no book, no movie, no story of any kind would be complete without bit players. A bit player is no less human no less important than the star but as bit players it means the story is not about them but rather about the star God. Scripture is about God about God's interaction with man, about God's overwhelming love for man, about God caring for man. The story is about God not about man.Gosh, I must have missed the "man playing a bit part" section of the Bible. That's a pretty warped view of how God sees man, I'm afraid. It's too bad that someone forgot to let Jesus know that he was coming to man's world to die for mere bit players in God's grand "sovereign" scheme of things
Talk of disperation? Why are we in battle or a discussion? Are we trying to grow in the knowledge of God's word or are we trying to win our point.
I laid out the story of Joseph, I say to me it clearly shows God's hand in each major event, I say none of it happened by coincidence, nor does it reveal any place where God violated man's free will. You say God can't have that much control okay teach me show me in the story of Joseph where luck, coincidence, carma came in to play so what happened, so the end result was exactly as God had spoken. Or do you not see God's hand in it at all. I say if God's hand can be seen anywhere in the story it must be in all the story for God to be God.