That is what liberals just can't get around.Ironman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:06 pmAnd you repeating your personal pet theories also does not prove anything, God was told things were going on in Sodom and He plainly and clearly said, "I will go down to see for myself, if what I have been told is true, if not I will know."Grandfather wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 4:59 pmPerhaps I am missing something. Is there an explanation in your scripture quote? You do not make a case for how you arrive at your conclusion that "innumerable angels" are how God fills the heavens instead of it being God himself that fills them.Ironman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:41 pmGenesis 18:21; "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know. "Grandfather wrote: ↑Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:18 pm First, Please tell me how you arrive at this conclusion by a simple reading of the text? Where does the text say it is by "innumerable angels" that God fills the heavens? If you want to "read into" the text something that is not plainly stated, then you are free to do so. However, allow others the same leeway if they desire to "read into" the text something that is not plainly stated.
Second, if God "learns" then he is constantly changing. (That is the basic premise of learning) And if God is changing, then the passages that say he changes not are a lie.
Third, 1 John 3:20 plainly states that God knows, not learns about, everything. If the angels are telling him things he did not know, then these verse is also "untrue"
Next, you do not even address the fact that if God is "learning" he is changing, and if he is changing he is violating the scriptures that say he does not change. (Mal 3:6 for example) BTW - if he repents as we understand repenting, then he is changing also. Again in violation of the scripture.
Finally, you do not make any attempt to explain the passage in 1 John where we are told that God knows all things. Knows all things, not comes to know, not learns about, but knows - present perfect tense. Again if he needs angels to tell him stuff because he doesn't know it, or even if he has to go find out himself because he did not know it, then 1 John 3 is wrong.
Simply repeating passages does not prove anything
Genesis 18:21 says what it says and since they do not believe it, they have to try and explain it away with their "theological theories" which are nothing really but just their excuses to doubt the Word of God.
NOT you or me but God HIMSELF said: "I will go down now,"
He was going at a certain point in time: now. Meaning of course he was NOT there when he said he would god down... or else why go down?
God said He would go down to: "SEE"
God would See something there that he was not seeing now. Thus the reason for going down.
God said he would find out: "whether"
According to Webster whether means "choice between alternatives." In other words, mayb so and maybe not. God said he was going down to see IF or IF not ) 'whether" what He had been told was true.
After going down God then says based on what He sees: "I will know."
NOT I NOW know... OR I use to know... but I "will" in the future know.
So there is really no reason to doubt God at all. It is the unbelieving sceptics that we should doubt.
AND if people refuse to believe God then what about Abraham??? Seems He was in this as well.
Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
Abraham "drew near" - Thus God must have "spiritual body presence" that you can get closer to or father away from!
And Abraham tried to reason and talk to God. So God must have "ears" and a "mind" that He can hear and be reasoned with.
AND contrary to what has been said in a couple of other post God did change His mind.
He changed the level of destruction from 50
to 45
to 40
to 30
to 20
to 10.....
So really God is nothing like most of the liberal unbelievers say He is.
And on this subject just for good measure, When God was determined to destroy the Children of Israel, Moses talked him out of it, so that He changed his mind.
Exodus 32:12 (TEV) 12 Why should the Egyptians be able to say that you led your people out of Egypt, planning to kill them in the mountains and destroy them completely? Stop being angry; change your mind and do not bring this disaster on your people.
13 Remember your servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Remember the solemn promise you made to them to give them as many descendants as there are stars in the sky and to give their descendants all that land you promised would be their possession forever."
14 So the LORD changed his mind and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.