Dake Bible Discussion BoardGREAT understanding of Free Will

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luchnia
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Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by luchnia » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:26 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:09 pm
luchnia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm

No, I do not believe that one has to choose depravity. A person does depraved things because they are depraved. They do the will of their father. Sinners sin because they are sinners. Some are so bad that God gives them over to a reprobate mind to do things they would never consider doing on their own.
My question at this point would be, because one is born in depravity they would have to come to a point to choose to sin at which time they become a sinner, correct?

In my view an infant is unable to choose to sin since they haven't even learned to talk, walk, or do anything really. They have not developed a moral compass in their spirit. I understand sin as missing the moral mark and from my understanding of children they have to come to a place that they can sin. I think this coincides with what Jesus said about the children.

What are your thoughts?
I disagree.

They are a sinner because they are born in depravity, even if they have not committed personal sins. The commission of such sins at a later time only proves that they are such. It's like an apple tree producing apples. From a seed, it is destined to do so. It has no choice in the matter. It is an apple tree, even if it doesn't live long enough to produce a single apple.

To have any chance at producing a different kind of fruit, it would have to be regenerated (that is, genetically re-engineered), becoming a totally different type of tree. Similar to how when a person is saved, they become a new creature.

Trees are known by their fruit and they do not produce fruit that is contrary to their nature.
I think I see your view on this, yet to me humankind are different in the aspect that each person, no matter whom they are born from are individually accountable and that has to take place at some point in time. I am reminded of when Paul mentioned knowing sin.

It would seem being a sinner would require sinning. Sin requires action (conception in the heart) according to James chapter one. An infant would have to be drawn away of their own lust, enticed, and sin would have to be birthed in the heart before a baby could sin. To me the math does not add up them being a sinner without committing sin. Born in depravity or sin is one thing, born depraved or sinning is another entirely. I deem them completely different states.

Interesting discussion!


Word up!

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:28 pm

Ironman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:19 pm
Both the Old and New Testaments indicate that God has a special relationship with children. In the book of Ezekiel, God was very upset with His people as they were sacrificing their children to idols. However, God calls them "My children":

Ezekiel 16:20-21, "Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter? You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire."

Babies and young children who die go the heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices.
Please, notice that concerning the children of Ezekiel 16:20-21... The people bore those children unto the Lord. The parent or parents must have been believers at the time of the birth of these children for the principle of the child being clean based on having at least one believing parent (1st Cor. 7:14). In fact, there is a similar, multi-generational principle found in other scriptures that works similarly to the principle found in 1st Cor. 7:14 (see Psalm 103:17). So, even if the parents in question were not believers at the time of the birth of these children, there are scriptures that cover their circumstance and allow God to legally call these children His. The fact that their parent(s) turned against the Lord and sacrificed them does not disprove my position.

Great scripture!


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved... God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Ironman
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Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Ironman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:38 pm

You are ignoring this;

Babies and young children who die go the heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices.

Even if two unbelieving people, whos parents, grand parents, great grand parents and great great grand parents, all confirmed athiests had a child and the child died at birth this child, who is not capable of sinning or making moral any choices will be declared to be innocent by God, and, therefore, worthy of heaven.

No matter how you twist and turn unrevelant Scriptures to suite your personal ideas and pet theories regarding infants being worthy of death and hell because of their parents YOU ARE WRONG!


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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branham1965
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Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by branham1965 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:48 am

I agree with you Haz. :angel: :angel: :angel:
Ironman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:38 pm
You are ignoring this;

Babies and young children who die go the heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices.

Even if two unbelieving people, whos parents, grand parents, great grand parents and great great grand parents, all confirmed athiests had a child and the child died at birth this child, who is not capable of sinning or making moral any choices will be declared to be innocent by God, and, therefore, worthy of heaven.

No matter how you twist and turn unrevelant Scriptures to suite your personal ideas and pet theories regarding infants being worthy of death and hell because of their parents YOU ARE WRONG!



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Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:40 pm

Ironman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:38 pm
You are ignoring this;

Babies and young children who die go the heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices.

Even if two unbelieving people, whos parents, grand parents, great grand parents and great great grand parents, all confirmed athiests had a child and the child died at birth this child, who is not capable of sinning or making moral any choices will be declared to be innocent by God, and, therefore, worthy of heaven.

No matter how you twist and turn unrevelant Scriptures to suite your personal ideas and pet theories regarding infants being worthy of death and hell because of their parents YOU ARE WRONG!
If the Bible were as clear as you say concerning this subject, I doubt that we'd be discussing it.

Please, provide a biblical example of someone who had no tie to a believer who died as an infant and went to Heaven.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved... God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:05 pm

luchnia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:26 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:09 pm
luchnia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm

No, I do not believe that one has to choose depravity. A person does depraved things because they are depraved. They do the will of their father. Sinners sin because they are sinners. Some are so bad that God gives them over to a reprobate mind to do things they would never consider doing on their own.
My question at this point would be, because one is born in depravity they would have to come to a point to choose to sin at which time they become a sinner, correct?

In my view an infant is unable to choose to sin since they haven't even learned to talk, walk, or do anything really. They have not developed a moral compass in their spirit. I understand sin as missing the moral mark and from my understanding of children they have to come to a place that they can sin. I think this coincides with what Jesus said about the children.

What are your thoughts?
I disagree.

They are a sinner because they are born in depravity, even if they have not committed personal sins. The commission of such sins at a later time only proves that they are such. It's like an apple tree producing apples. From a seed, it is destined to do so. It has no choice in the matter. It is an apple tree, even if it doesn't live long enough to produce a single apple.

To have any chance at producing a different kind of fruit, it would have to be regenerated (that is, genetically re-engineered), becoming a totally different type of tree. Similar to how when a person is saved, they become a new creature.

Trees are known by their fruit and they do not produce fruit that is contrary to their nature.
I think I see your view on this, yet to me humankind are different in the aspect that each person, no matter whom they are born from are individually accountable and that has to take place at some point in time. I am reminded of when Paul mentioned knowing sin.

It would seem being a sinner would require sinning. Sin requires action (conception in the heart) according to James chapter one. An infant would have to be drawn away of their own lust, enticed, and sin would have to be birthed in the heart before a baby could sin. To me the math does not add up them being a sinner without committing sin. Born in depravity or sin is one thing, born depraved or sinning is another entirely. I deem them completely different states.

Interesting discussion!
I see the problem being that the image and likeness of God in a person is marred by sin, even at conception (and from prior to conception if the principle revealed in passages like these (Heb. 7:9-10; Matt. 23:35; Ex. 20:5; Ex. 34:7; Lev. 26:39; Num. 14:18; Num. 14:33; Num. 16:27; Deut. 5:9; 2 Kings 21:21; 2 Kings 22:13; 2 Chr. 29:6; 2 Chr. 34:21; Ezra 9:7; Neh. 9:2; Job 5:4; Job 18:19; Job 21:19; Ps. 21:10; Ps. 37:28; Ps. 51:5; Ps. 109:6-20; Pr. 14:11; Is. 14:20-21; Is. 65:7; Jer. 3:24; Jer. 14:20; Jer. 16:10; Jer. 16:19; Jer. 23:27; Jer. 31:29; Jer. 32:18; Jer. 44:9; Lam. 2:11; Lam. 5:7; Ezk. 2:3; Ezk. 18:2; Ezk. 18:19; Dan. 6:24; Dan. 9:16; Hos. 9:16-17; Hos. 10:9; Matt. 27:25) are taken into account. Some of these passages even hold folks accountable as if they personally committed the actions of their ancestors.

In short, the seed of wicked shall be cut off.

No one is worthy of Heaven. God does not owe entrance into Heaven to anyone. Not even babies are pure enough to merit entry on their own.


2 Thessalonians 2:10b-12 King James Version
... because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, that they might be saved... God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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