Dake Bible Discussion BoardGREAT understanding of Free Will

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
User avatar
Ironman
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2835
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm
Location: Australia

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Ironman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:40 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:14 pm
macca wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:10 am
So, all children are hell bound unless they get bornagain?
Even the misscarried, aborted and killed with their mother?
I would have to say yes, Macca.
So you know more than God has revealed in His Word through King David and the Porphet?

AGAIN WRONG!

Here is biblical proof about the death of infants. In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die.

David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.

When asked about this behavior, David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23;

Verse “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven.

This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven; Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever," but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm

luchnia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:52 am
Doesn't one have to choose depravity? An infant cannot choose anything as they have not developed anything that is capable of choosing in my opinion. Yet there are some fascinating scriptures that make you ponder certain things such as John the Baptist that had the Spirit in the womb. I wonder what he was like when he popped out :shocked!:

I don't agree with infants being depraved, except those born of the evil seed that God had to destroy. To me being born in sin does not make one a sinner. John is the perfect example of that. John was born in sin, yet had the Spirit in the womb which we know the Spirit did not sin.

Jesus had remarkable words for John. Some would say John, like others needed to repent and accept Jesus, yet the Scriptures do not record such an event happening with John, and yet he was born of man in the flesh. John simply does not fit the total depravity full of sin model at all. After all, Scripture shows us that Jesus did not come for the righteous, but the unrighteous.
No, I do not believe that one has to choose depravity. A person does depraved things because they are depraved. They do the will of their father. Sinners sin because they are sinners. Some are so bad that God gives them over to a reprobate mind to do things they would never consider doing on their own.

John the Baptist's story is interesting because it is not the normal experience of children in the womb. If all children in the womb are innocent and worthy of Heaven, then John is nothing special. However, he was the greatest born of a woman, and yet was still outside of the Kingdom at one point prior to his martyrdom.

To me, being born in sin does make a person a sinner. It's why they sin. And, John's case provides the perfect example of an exception through divine intervention (which proves that God can and does save some infants in the womb according to His grace).

To me, John's case proves the Total Depravity model because there would have been no exceptional intervention needed if Total Depravity was not the standard.


Thou through Thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.
Psalms 119:98‭-‬100 King James Version

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm

Ironman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:26 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:14 pm
macca wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:10 am
So, all children are hell bound unless they get bornagain?
Even the misscarried, aborted and killed with their mother?
I would have to say yes, Macca.
AGAIN WRONG!

Here is biblical proof about the death of infants. In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die.

David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.

When asked about this behavior, David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23;

Verse “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven.

This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven; Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever," but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.
And, this story is a great proof of my position, Haz. Thank you for posting it.

David got right with God and his unborn child benefitted from it according to the principle that the child of at least one believing parent is clean.

Thank you, Haz! Great passage!


Thou through Thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.
Psalms 119:98‭-‬100 King James Version

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:50 pm

luchnia wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:39 am
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:10 pm
I think the idea that free will requires a lack of coercion is false.
I would like to see your ideas on this. In a way, we could say we are forced into one of two choices. Another thing we had no control over is being born into this flesh, so there is another area that begs some questions.
Hi, Luchnia,

I've been meaning to come back to this one.

My basic idea on this is that free will requires consequences, either positive or negative, for a person's actions. And, such consequences are a form of coercion, since there is a cost or benefit to taking a particular action. Free will is the ability to take an action knowing that there will be consequences and in spite of the consequences (if desired).

Does that help explain my position on this?


Thou through Thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.
Psalms 119:98‭-‬100 King James Version

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:52 pm

branham1965 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:22 am
LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR. ROMANS 3:4
...
THERE IS NOT A SINGLE CREDIBLE PROVEN PREACHER OF THE GOSPEL THAT TEACHES THAT BABIES AND YOUNG ONES GO TO HELL.

ALL WOULD REFUTE THIS AS BEING CRUEL AND UNJUST .

AND WOULD CONDEMN IT AS RANK HERESY.
As you quoted, let God be true and every man a liar.


Thou through Thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.
Psalms 119:98‭-‬100 King James Version

User avatar
Ironman
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2835
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm
Location: Australia

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Ironman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:02 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:45 pm
Ironman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:26 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:14 pm
macca wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:10 am
So, all children are hell bound unless they get bornagain?
Even the misscarried, aborted and killed with their mother?
I would have to say yes, Macca.
AGAIN WRONG!

Here is biblical proof about the death of infants. In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die.

David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.

When asked about this behavior, David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23;

Verse “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.”

David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven.

This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven; Psalm 23:6, "Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever," but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.
And, this story is a great proof of my position, Haz. Thank you for posting it.

David got right with God and his unborn child benefitted from it according to the principle that the child of at least one believing parent is clean.

Thank you, Haz! Great passage!
I said you are wrong, infants who die, are aborted, who's mother dies carrying them never go to Hell, they immediately go to Heaven.

Jesus said in Matthew 18:3-5:
"Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me."

The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy or are aborted. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. You are portraying God as an evil tyrant who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, your entire argument is without merit or any semblance of biblical credence.

In the words of Jesus Christ, “Let the little children come to me.”

The Bible also indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil:

Deut. 1: 39, "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

You are so far off the rails, and in the left field, you have dissapeared over the horizon.
Last edited by Ironman on Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

User avatar
luchnia
He that Believeth Not Shall Be Damned
Posts: 781
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by luchnia » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm

No, I do not believe that one has to choose depravity. A person does depraved things because they are depraved. They do the will of their father. Sinners sin because they are sinners. Some are so bad that God gives them over to a reprobate mind to do things they would never consider doing on their own.
My question at this point would be, because one is born in depravity they would have to come to a point to choose to sin at which time they become a sinner, correct?

In my view an infant is unable to choose to sin since they haven't even learned to talk, walk, or do anything really. They have not developed a moral compass in their spirit. I understand sin as missing the moral mark and from my understanding of children they have to come to a place that they can sin. I think this coincides with what Jesus said about the children.

What are your thoughts?


Word up!

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:09 pm

luchnia wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:43 pm

No, I do not believe that one has to choose depravity. A person does depraved things because they are depraved. They do the will of their father. Sinners sin because they are sinners. Some are so bad that God gives them over to a reprobate mind to do things they would never consider doing on their own.
My question at this point would be, because one is born in depravity they would have to come to a point to choose to sin at which time they become a sinner, correct?

In my view an infant is unable to choose to sin since they haven't even learned to talk, walk, or do anything really. They have not developed a moral compass in their spirit. I understand sin as missing the moral mark and from my understanding of children they have to come to a place that they can sin. I think this coincides with what Jesus said about the children.

What are your thoughts?
I disagree.

They are a sinner because they are born in depravity, even if they have not committed personal sins. The commission of such sins at a later time only proves that they are such. It's like an apple tree producing apples. From a seed, it is destined to do so. It has no choice in the matter. It is an apple tree, even if it doesn't live long enough to produce a single apple.

To have any chance at producing a different kind of fruit, it would have to be regenerated (that is, genetically re-engineered), becoming a totally different type of tree. Similar to how when a person is saved, they become a new creature.

Trees are known by their fruit and they do not produce fruit that is contrary to their nature.


Thou through Thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.
Psalms 119:98‭-‬100 King James Version

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4161
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:13 pm

Ironman wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:02 pm
I said you are wrong, infants who die, are aborted, who's mother dies carrying them never go to Hell, they immediately go to Heaven.

Jesus said in Matthew 18:3-5:
"Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. Whoever receives one little child like this in My name receives Me."

The Bible nowhere teaches that babies go to hell if they die in infancy or are aborted. Neither does it teach that babies inherit the sins of their parents. You are portraying God as an evil tyrant who condemns innocent children to eternal destruction, your entire argument is without merit or any semblance of biblical credence.

In the words of Jesus Christ, “Let the little children come to me.”

The Bible also indicates that children are regarded as being innocent because of their lack of ability to discern between good and evil:

Deut. 1: 39, "Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

You are so far off the rails, and in the left field, you have dissapeared over the horizon.
And, I say that you are wrong, Haz.

As to Matthew 18:1-10. First, please notice that both conversion and becoming as a little child is required. One or the other by itself is not enough. Therefore, this passage does not exclude infants from conversion. Then, Jesus points out that the little ones in question believe in Him! Therefore, they can believe! Furthermore, the little ones in question were part of the Jewish community and would have been covered by the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants through the obedience of their parents until they were old enough to be responsible for their own actions, according to the principle that having at least one believing parent makes the child clean (1st Cor. 7:14). So, Matthew 18:1-10 strengthens my case and weakens yours.

I love the horizon. The fact that it is not a curvizon is awesome!


Thou through Thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me. I have more understanding than all my teachers: for Thy testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Thy precepts.
Psalms 119:98‭-‬100 King James Version

User avatar
Ironman
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2835
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm
Location: Australia

Re: GREAT understanding of Free Will

Post by Ironman » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:19 pm

Both the Old and New Testaments indicate that God has a special relationship with children. In the book of Ezekiel, God was very upset with His people as they were sacrificing their children to idols. However, God calls them "My children":

Ezekiel 16:20-21, "Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had borne to Me and sacrificed them to idols to be devoured. Were your harlotries so small a matter? You slaughtered My children and offered them up to idols by causing them to pass through the fire."

Babies and young children who die go the heaven through the grace and righteous judgment of God. The Bible is clear that those who are not fully capable of making moral choices are declared to be innocent, and, therefore, worthy of heaven. The Bible does not mention any kind of "age of accountability," but bases accountability on the basis of the ability to make moral choices.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Post Reply