Dake Bible Discussion BoardTradition in the Church

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
User avatar
Jay
Be Strong in the Power of His Might
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:00 pm
Location: Orlando, Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Jay » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:04 pm

luchnia wrote: Dake's notes alone is phenomenal (for lack of a better word) and my life has been richly blessed by them! As I get older, I think the main thing I have learned is how little I do know :shocked!:
I totally agree with you. One of my favorite scriptures:

Deuteronomy 29:29 (KJV)
29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

There are SO MANY things that we do not know and we won't know until we get to heaven.


Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

User avatar
Ironman
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2816
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Ironman » Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:58 pm

Sure, there are many secret things that belong to God, but everything that's in the Bible regarding the salvation of mankind belongs to us. All we need do is use our God given common sense and search them out.

We do not have to be Bible experts, with a higher education than most to understand God's Word. God would never write a book by which men will be judged in such a way that it could not be understood by the average man who can read and understand plain simple language?

Deut. 29:29, The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

John 14:26, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, , and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13, Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 16:15, All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of nine, and shall shew it unto you.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by branham1965 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:02 am

I agree with you Haz.

1/3 of the angels fell with Lucifer.This has been a teaching in the Church of Jesus Christ for 2000 years.

Jay,

I never heard Dad Hagin or anyone else ever teach that about the fallen angels.

I might have not heard them.Did you learn it there or elsewhere??


JESUS said in Luke 10:18 I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Satan fell in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.

Ironman wrote:
"1. That One Third of the Angels Fell with Lucifer.
The Bible Never teaches that one third of them fell with him. The Bible teaches that one third WILL fall with him in the future."
.

Lucifer rebelled and led an invasion into heaven to try and dethrone God, long before Adam was created. Lucifer convinced one third of God's angels to join him in this rebellion.

Lucifer ruled the pre-adamite world which God destroyed and covered with water when Lucifer and one third of God's angels invaded heaven. There are two great floods mentioned in Scripture, one, Lucifers flood and the second Noahs flood, both as an act of punishment.

Taken from God's Plan for man and the Dake Bible notes;

There were two great floods on the Earth, 1. we shall call Lucifers flood brought upon the Earth because of lucifers rebellion, and 2. Noahs flood caused by the rebellion of man. Many Scriptures show there was a great difference between them, all we need do is read every one and believe what we read.

The first where God destroyed His original creation because of Lucifers rebellion, and the second, Noah's flood because of mans rebellion.
Lucifers flood, everything was destroyed, all life, no light, the earth made empty and void.
Noah's flood, all life was not destroyed. Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives were left alive, plus all animals and the sun and moon was not prevented from giving light.
Here are all the Scriptures proving this occurred, read them for yourself then believe them or not??
Noahs flood which I will post as . 'N.F.' Lucifers flood, L.F.

L.F. Earth made waste (Gen. 1:2; Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Earth not made waste (Gen. 8:11-12, 22 ; Heb. 11:7 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. Earth made empty (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23).
N.F. Earth not made empty (Gen. 6:18-22 ; 8:16).

L.F. Earth made totally dark (Gen. 1:2-5 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Not made totally dark (Gen. 8:6-22)

L.F. No light from heaven (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Light from heaven (Gen. 8:6-22).

L.F. No day and night (Gen. 1:2-5).
N.F. Day and night (Gen. 8:1-22).

L.F. All vegetation destroyed Gen. 1:2 ; 2:5-6 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Vegetation not destroyed (Gen. 8:11, 21 ; 9:3, 20).

L.F. No continued abating of the waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Continued abating of the waters from the earth by evaporation (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. Waters taken off the earth in one day (Gen. 1:10).
N.F. Months of waters abating off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. God supernaturally takes waters off the earth (Gen. 1:6-12).
N.F. Natural work of evaporation of the waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. No rebuke or miraculous work in fled away (Gen. 1:6-12 ; Ps. 104:7).
N.F. No rebuke or miraculous work is taking waters off the earth (Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. The waters on earth in Gen. 1:2, hasted away when rebuked (Gen. 1:6-2 ; Ps. 104:9).
N.F. The bounds already eternally set for waters in Gen. 8:1-14).

L.F. All fish were totally destroyed in flood of Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. No fish were destroyed of created again after Noah's flood (Gen. 1:20-23 ; 6:18-22).

L.F. No Fowls left on the earth after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26).
N.F. Fowls were left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:7-17).

L.F. No animals left after (Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Some of all animals kept alive (Gen. 6:20 ; 8:17 ; 9:2-4, 10-16).

L.F. No man left on earth in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. Eight men and women left after Noah's flood (Gen. 6:18 ; 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No social system left at all in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. A social system left after Noah's flood (Gen. 8:15-22 ; 9:1-16 ; 1 Pet. 3:20).

L.F. No ark made to save men in Gen. 1:2 ; Jer. 4:23-26 ; 2 Pet. 3:5-6).
N.F. An ark made to save men and animals alive (Gen. 6:8-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16 ; Heb. 11:7).

L.F. Cause: fall of Lucifer, now Satan (Isa. 14:12-14; Jer. 4:23-26; Ezek. 28:11-17 ; Luke 10:18).
N.F. Cause: wickedness of men (Gen. 6:5-13) ; and fallen angels (Gen. 6:1-4; Jude 6-7 ; 2 Pet. 2:4).

L.F. Result: became necessary to make new life on earth (Gen. 1:3-2 : 25 ; Isa. 45:18 ; Eph. 3:11).
N.F. Results: no new creation made, for all men and animals were not destroyed (Gen. 6:18-8 : 22 ; 9:1-16).
The original creations of God include the heavens and the Earth and all things therein as first brought into being. This period is summed up in Gen. 1:1. thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth." This refers to the dateless past, and takes in only a part of the creative ages, that is, from the beginning of creation until the chaotic period of Gen. 1:2 when the Earth and its first inhabitants were destroyed by the first flood. Notice during Noahs flood not all inhabitants , vegetation, animals, day, night were destroyed.
There are many other passages in Scripture that refer to that period (Job. 38; Ps. 8:3-8; 19:1-6; Prov. 8:22-31; John 1:3,10; Acts 17:24-26; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:1-12; 11:3; Rev. 4:11).
Rev. 4:11).
In Scripture, all instances of obscuring the sun and bringing darkness are the result of judgment, not creation-which is also true of the two universal floods (Genesis 6:8-8:22; Exodus 10:21-23; Isaiah 5:30; Jeremiah 4:23-26).
All predictions of future darkness depict judgment (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 24:29-31; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 8:12; Rev. 9:2; Rev. 16:10; Isaiah 13:10; Joel 2:30-3:16; Amos 5:18-20).
Could we say that Genesis 1:2 is the only place in Scripture where darkness and a universal flood are not an act of judgment? If it isn't an option, then Genesis 1:2 proves that there was a pre-Adamite world destroyed by darkness and flood.
No one questions that Noah's flood was an act of judgment, or doubts the existence of free moral agents before the flood actually came. Why then doubt the existence of a pre-Adamite world which was destroyed by the darkness and flood of Genesis 1:2?



User avatar
luchnia
Ye Shall Receive Power After That the Holy Ghost is Come Upon You
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:15 am

Ironman wrote:Sure, there are many secret things that belong to God, but everything that's in the Bible regarding the salvation of mankind belongs to us. All we need do is use our God given common sense and search them out.

We do not have to be Bible experts, with a higher education than most to understand God's Word. God would never write a book by which men will be judged in such a way that it could not be understood by the average man who can read and understand plain simple language?
:angel: A hearty amen! When I state I don't know, what I don't know are things that are NOT recorded in God's word.


Word up!

User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by branham1965 » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:17 am

That sounds very strange to me.



First of all my late Pastor never taught that.Nor did Dad Hagin from Rhema or Lester Sumrall of LeSEA.Not to my knowledge.

The evil angels fell when Lucifer became Satan.Not in the future.

The Triumphant Church Dominion over all the powers of darkness by

Kenneth E.Hagin covers all this in depth.



User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4098
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:19 am

luchnia wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Jay wrote: If you can give me scripture and verse I'll have to believe it.
AS long as it is in context! :mrgreen:
Absolutely, Luchnia.

I think that it is safe to say that if what a person believes about a scripture doesn't fit the context that that scripture is from, then what they believe isn't necessarily related to what that particular scripture actually teaches.


"Behold, He cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."
— Revelation 1:7 (King James Version)

User avatar
luchnia
Ye Shall Receive Power After That the Holy Ghost is Come Upon You
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:16 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
luchnia wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Jay wrote: If you can give me scripture and verse I'll have to believe it.
AS long as it is in context! :mrgreen:
Absolutely, Luchnia.

I think that it is safe to say that if what a person believes about a scripture doesn't fit the context that that scripture is from, then what they believe isn't necessarily related to what that particular scripture actually teaches.
I would even add that it is VERY EASY to go down the perception path moving away from what a particular scripture actually teaches. Don't ask me how I know that. I often think that my mind is simply program for bits and pieces instead of context. :mrgreen:


Word up!

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 4098
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Spiritblade Disciple » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:38 pm

I agree.

Even reading scripture from an inaccurate paradigm (like a traditional mindset, for example) can lead to misunderstandings.


"Behold, He cometh with clouds; and EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen."
— Revelation 1:7 (King James Version)

User avatar
Jay
Be Strong in the Power of His Might
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:00 pm
Location: Orlando, Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by Jay » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:05 am

branham1965 wrote:I agree with you Haz.

1/3 of the angels fell with Lucifer.This has been a teaching in the Church of Jesus Christ for 2000 years.

Jay,

I never heard Dad Hagin or anyone else ever teach that about the fallen angels. I might have not heard them.Did you learn it there or elsewhere??

I can't say I ever heard Bro. Hagin or any of the other instructors at Rhema teach this.

If you believe how Dake teaches Revelation as I do, you will see that the book follows a very simple timeline.

Revelation chapter 1 is setting up the Revelation that is about to be given to John.

Revelation chapters 2 and 3 are the letters to the seven churches.

Revelation 4 through 22 are all FUTURE EVENTS.

Lucifer fell at the end of the pre-Adamite dispensation. This caused complete and utter destruction of the earth and every living thing in it by the flood that ensued.

Revelation chapter 12 is in the middle of Daniel's 70th week. These two events are at least 2,000 years apart and counting.

The Bible PLAINLY TEACHES that Jesus was there when Lucifer was cast out of heaven.

Luke 10:18 (KJV)
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Do you see anything in Luke 10:18 that says one-third of the angels fell at the same time?

Where the problem lies is that good, well meaning Christians are preaching CONJECTURE and TRADITION when they say 1/3 of the angels fell when Lucifer was cast out of heaven in the pre-Adamite dispensation.

We do know that angels fell when they took the daughters of men in Genesis chapter 6. But, when they fell is never revealed to us!

Genesis 6:4 (KJV)
4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Did these angels fall at the moment they made the decision to take these women as wives or did they fall at some previous time? The Bible DOES NOT REVEAL THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION.

We know that David took five smooth stones when he went to meet Goliath. There were four other giants left in the world and I firmly believe he had planned one stone for each giant. We see later, in David's reign, that finally, all of the giants are killed off.

Giants are the result of an unnatural sexual union between an angel and a woman.

Did more angels fall AFTER NOAH'S FLOOD?

We know the giants did not live through Noah's flood so they could not have kept procreating. Noah's flood killed all of them.

Peter said the angels that fell and produced the giants are held in chains until the day of judgment.

2 Peter 2:4-5 (KJV)
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

The Bible shows us that a union between an angel and a human woman will produce a giant. The angels that caused the giants for which Noah's flood came, are being held in chains until the day of judgment. So, how could they be the ones that took women AFTER NOAH'S FLOOD?

They cant' be. So there had to be more angels that fell into sin with women AFTER NOAH'S FLOOD!

Now, on to Revelation:

ALL of Revelation chapter 12 is in Daniel's 70th week, this is in the FUTURE. It has not happened yet. Of course, "Preterists" believe everything has already taken place but that is another topic.

Lucifer was cast out of heaven at the end of the pre-Adamite world. But, by reading the book of Job, we know that Satan and his angels can still go into and out of heaven. Revelation 12 is talking about a future event when one-third of the angels DO FALL! Satan and his angels will finally be cast out of heaven forever and they will create havoc on this earth because they know their time is short.

Revelation 12:1-9 (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Dake tells us the woman is "National Israel" and the dragon is Satan. The man-child are the 144,000 young Jewish virgin men who are consecrated to God. The dragon is Satan.

Revelation 12:12-13 (KJV)
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Israel did not exist, nor did the 144,000, when Lucifer was cast out of heaven. That in itself proves that Revelation 12:4 CANNOT BE USED to bolster anyone's argument that 1/3 of the angels FELL WITH LUCIFER.

Fallen angels are present in Genesis 6 and Noah's flood was an act of God's mercy to destroy all the giants on the land and that ungodly bloodline that, if left unchecked could have stopped Christ from atoning for our sins.

Those angels are held in chains until the day of judgment (A FUTURE EVENT).

You cannot take Revelation chapter 12 out of Daniel's 70th week and place it back into the pre-Adamite dispensation. If you can, then you could do that with chapter 11 and say the two witnesses have already come and done their job. In fact, you could do that with any part of Revelation IF you can take chapter 12 OUT OF CONTEXT.

I believe that God is showing us, in His Revelation, that Daniel's 70th week is going to be a horrible time for the world! Satan opposes us now and so do his angels and spirits but in the tribulation, it is going to be so much worse, especially when Satan and his angels are forever cast out of heaven. I would NOT want to be here!

A good argument could be raised, using the scriptures I gave above, that there have been more times than once that the angels fell from God's grace.


Hebrews 10:35-36
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

User avatar
luchnia
Ye Shall Receive Power After That the Holy Ghost is Come Upon You
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2014 6:01 am

Re: Tradition in the Church

Post by luchnia » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:35 am

Jay wrote: The Bible PLAINLY TEACHES that Jesus was there when Lucifer was cast out of heaven.

Luke 10:18 (KJV)
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Do you see anything in Luke 10:18 that says one-third of the angels fell at the same time?
Does that verse plainly teach that Jesus was there when Lucifer was cast out of heaven, or does that verse in Luke teach that Jesus saw the adversary, satan, being cast out as lightning? This is the time when one would wish that scripture would state something like, "I was there when Lucifer fell and was cast out of heaven as the adversary." That would make our studies SO much easier!

Again this is another verse where we can only speculate, because in the context Jesus is talking to the 70 where they were excited about the devils being cast out. We could even wonder if there were multiple times that satan was cast out of heaven. We know that on many occasions the adversary was here and there. The greek word pipto (fall) is an interesting use in that verse.

Although it is not written in this verse, I think most tend to believe this was the event where Lucifer fell. If we look at this as the major fall of Lucifer, then we can speculate that this one and then one more will occur as we see in Rev 12.

What would keep one from speculating that satan is constantly trying to thwart the heavenly realms? It is entirely possible that satan has been tossed from heaven multiple times over. I don't think that is the case but who knows.

I tend to lean with the verse in question being Lucifer's fall, but the wording certainly is not direct on the matter and if we only take this at literal face value, we simply don't have that written here. Verses like this show me one thing, we are not clear about many things, and 1/3 of the angels has the same uncertainty. So much of what we learn is subjective in that it cannot be perceived concretely.

In many cases I think that is the point we are supposed to arrive at. :mrgreen:


Word up!

Post Reply