Dake Bible Discussion BoardIS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

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Ironman
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Ironman » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:04 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
branham1965 wrote:THE REFORMERS TAUGHT...

Here's what Martin Luther taught about infant baptism...

https://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/te ... t-13a.html


You tell us what everyone teaches about infant baptism as if what they taught lines up with the RCC's teaching, and you accuse me of spreading lies????

I don't care what anyone teaches about infant baptism if they say it is God ordained. Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. THATS WHAT I BELIEVE. There is not one word that mentions any such practice. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God. Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for their sins and therefore could not repent of known sins. Thy therefore cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial  and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life.

Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptized.

Matt. 28:19-20, V, 19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
   
v, 20, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15-16, v, 16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
   
v, 17, And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:38-39, v, 38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
v, 39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

******************************************************************************************************

From Catholic answers; Catholic Answers: Infant Baptism.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/infant-baptism

["Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?"]

That statement in Matthew 19:14, by Jesus had nothing to do with baptising the children about Him. Some people were wanting Jesus to lay His hands upon their children, but the disciples rebuked them. It was then Jesus said;
V.14, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
V. 15, And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Jesus laid His hands on them, and departed. Jesus never baptized them, or told His disciples to baptise them. The laying of hands on people and children is an outward form of blessing in both Testaments The laying on of hands on the sick to heal and to bless men is a practice of both Testaments (Gen. 48:14; Num. 8:10; 27:23; Dt. 34:9; Matt. 19:15; Mark 5:23; 6:2, 5; Luke 4:40; 13:13; Acts 5:12; 13:3; 14:3; 19:11; 28:8; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6; Heb. 6:2).

Infant baptism is a catholic tradition, nothing more. It was introduced by them to bind the brethren and their children to their church.
I was baptized, (Had water dribbled on my forehead), in 1947 while piddling or pooing in my nappy.  I was truly baptized by immersion as an adult at age 43.

Can anyone tell me of one instant where an infant, a baby, would come go to a stranger when called? Every infant baptism I have witnessed, and I have witnessed many as an alter boy, mostly done after mass, and as an adult throughout my life in the catholic church, where the baby, the infant was introduced to the priest, and then during the sprinkling of water on their foreheads, they waved their arms about, kicked with their legs, and screamed their heads off. It usually took the mother ten to twenty minutes to calm them.
Infant baptism is a farce and a waste of time. Children under the age of accountability are saved (Matthew 18:1-10; 19:14). The exact age of accountability is not mentioned in Scripture


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:35 am

Ironman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Ironman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:Haz is demonstrably ignorant concerning the particulars of RCC beliefs.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).
https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-necessity-of-baptism


But you've asked a great question, Billy. :angel:



The Catholic Church teaches that:

I don't believe you know what they teach, Haz. Nor do I understand why you seem to enjoy spreading easily disproved fasehoods about them.

If you don't believe in Baptismal Regeneration, fine. I can understand that. But, I don't get your need to spread misinformation about RCC beliefs, no matter how evil the RCC may be. If anything, such tactics ultimately help the RCC when folks realize the dishonesty of those opposing the RCC.


I don't know what they teach???

You've convinced me that you either do not know or you are mixing some truth with some falsehoods.

If you do know, then it seems the second conclusion is more likely.
:agrue:


    THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH
      And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of Death."
        — Revelation 1:17-18 King James Version —

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:45 am

Ironman wrote:Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture... The exact age of accountability is not mentioned in Scripture.

Infant baptism is not contrary to the idea of an age of accountability. In fact, the idea seems to demand it.

I think the Age of Accountability doctrine is a Roman Catholic teaching.


    THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH
      And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of Death."
        — Revelation 1:17-18 King James Version —

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:50 am

Ironman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
branham1965 wrote:THE REFORMERS TAUGHT...

Here's what Martin Luther taught about infant baptism...

https://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/te ... t-13a.html


[b]You tell us what everyone teaches about infant baptism as if what they taught lines up with the RCC's teaching, and you accuse me of spreading lies????

Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli all opposed the Anabaptists, Haz, on the grounds that they believed the Anabaptists were wrong about Infant Baptism being invalid.

I know very little about the Reformers, but I do know that.


    THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH
      And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of Death."
        — Revelation 1:17-18 King James Version —

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Ironman
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Ironman » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:37 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Ironman wrote:Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture... The exact age of accountability is not mentioned in Scripture.

Infant baptism is not contrary to the idea of an age of accountability. In fact, the idea seems to demand it.

I think the Age of Accountability doctrine is a Roman Catholic teaching.


So what, does that make it right fro them to baptise new born babies? They must believe a new born baby, a few weeks old is accountable for all the sins they have committed since they were born, so they must be baptized?

One of my sister in laws was told if she does not have her baby baptized, if the child was to die any time soon it would go to limbo or even hell?

This advice and teaching is straight from the pits of hell. How about addressing this garbage instead of excusing it?


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:51 am

Ironman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Ironman wrote:Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture... The exact age of accountability is not mentioned in Scripture.

Infant baptism is not contrary to the idea of an age of accountability. In fact, the idea seems to demand it.

I think the Age of Accountability doctrine is a Roman Catholic teaching.


So what, does that make it right fro them to baptise new born babies? They must believe a new born baby, a few weeks old is accountable for all the sins they have committed since they were born, so they must be baptized?

One of my sister in laws was told if she does not have her baby baptized, if the child was to die any time soon it would go to limbo or even hell?

This advice and teaching is straight from the pits of hell. How about addressing this garbage instead of excusing it?

If you believe in Original Sin, then yes, it would justify infant baptism, especially if you believed in salvation by grace and baptismal regeneration as the RCC does.

Do you believe in Original Sin?


    THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH
      And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of Death."
        — Revelation 1:17-18 King James Version —

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branham1965
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby branham1965 » Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:33 am

That's an Ironman post for sure mate. :angel: :angel:





Ironman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
branham1965 wrote:THE REFORMERS TAUGHT...

Here's what Martin Luther taught about infant baptism...

https://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/te ... t-13a.html


You tell us what everyone teaches about infant baptism as if what they taught lines up with the RCC's teaching, and you accuse me of spreading lies????

I don't care what anyone teaches about infant baptism if they say it is God ordained. Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture. THATS WHAT I BELIEVE. There is not one word that mentions any such practice. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God. Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for their sins and therefore could not repent of known sins. Thy therefore cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial  and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life.

Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptized.

Matt. 28:19-20, V, 19, Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
   
v, 20, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Mark 16:15-16, v, 16, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
   
v, 17, And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:38-39, v, 38, Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
v, 39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

******************************************************************************************************

From Catholic answers; Catholic Answers: Infant Baptism.
https://www.catholic.com/tract/infant-baptism

["Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?"]

That statement in Matthew 19:14, by Jesus had nothing to do with baptising the children about Him. Some people were wanting Jesus to lay His hands upon their children, but the disciples rebuked them. It was then Jesus said;
V.14, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
V. 15, And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.

Jesus laid His hands on them, and departed. Jesus never baptized them, or told His disciples to baptise them. The laying of hands on people and children is an outward form of blessing in both Testaments The laying on of hands on the sick to heal and to bless men is a practice of both Testaments (Gen. 48:14; Num. 8:10; 27:23; Dt. 34:9; Matt. 19:15; Mark 5:23; 6:2, 5; Luke 4:40; 13:13; Acts 5:12; 13:3; 14:3; 19:11; 28:8; 1 Tim. 4:14; 2 Tim. 1:6; Heb. 6:2).

Infant baptism is a catholic tradition, nothing more. It was introduced by them to bind the brethren and their children to their church.
I was baptized, (Had water dribbled on my forehead), in 1947 while piddling or pooing in my nappy.  I was truly baptized by immersion as an adult at age 43.

Can anyone tell me of one instant where an infant, a baby, would come go to a stranger when called? Every infant baptism I have witnessed, and I have witnessed many as an alter boy, mostly done after mass, and as an adult throughout my life in the catholic church, where the baby, the infant was introduced to the priest, and then during the sprinkling of water on their foreheads, they waved their arms about, kicked with their legs, and screamed their heads off. It usually took the mother ten to twenty minutes to calm them.
Infant baptism is a farce and a waste of time. Children under the age of accountability are saved (Matthew 18:1-10; 19:14). The exact age of accountability is not mentioned in Scripture



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Ironman
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Ironman » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:04 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Ironman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
Ironman wrote:Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture... The exact age of accountability is not mentioned in Scripture.

Infant baptism is not contrary to the idea of an age of accountability. In fact, the idea seems to demand it.

I think the Age of Accountability doctrine is a Roman Catholic teaching.


So what, does that make it right fro them to baptise new born babies? They must believe a new born baby, a few weeks old is accountable for all the sins they have committed since they were born, so they must be baptized?

One of my sister in laws was told if she does not have her baby baptized, if the child was to die any time soon it would go to limbo or even hell?

This advice and teaching is straight from the pits of hell. How about addressing this garbage instead of excusing it?

If you believe in Original Sin, then yes, it would justify infant baptism, especially if you believed in salvation by grace and baptismal regeneration as the RCC does.

Do you believe in Original Sin?

*****************************************
In Paul’s letter to the Romans. he makes a comparison between Adam and Christ. From Adam comes death and the moral consequences of sin, from Christ comes the healing of human nature. With Christ acting as a second Adam, a new head of the human race that makes the right choice, which has positive effects for those who are united to Him.

1 Cor. 15:22, 22, For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall "ALL" be made alive.
God calls us good and beloved before anything else. Sin is not at the heart of our nature; blessing is. And that didn’t stop being true because Adam and Eve ate fruit in the Garden. In fact, it never stopped being true. We are steadfastly held in relationship with God.
When we claim a sin nature, we abandon the opportunity for blessing and claim separation. We surrender walking with our Shepherd. But Jesus doesn’t want us to walk across Him. He wants us to walk with Him. Too often, we get the doctrine wrong. As Christians, it’s time for us to put sin back in its rightful place: in a broader contest of redemption and the blessing of humanity’s creation in the image of God.

That is why it is so perfectly clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God. Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for their sins and therefore could not repent of known sins. Thy therefore cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial  and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life. Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptized.


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

User avatar
Spiritblade Disciple
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 3677
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:27 pm

Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:34 am

Please, provide one clear scriptural example of a child that was born to Christian parents being baptized as an adult.


    THE KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH
      And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, "Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of Death."
        — Revelation 1:17-18 King James Version —

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branham1965
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Re: IS IT BAPTIMAL REGENARATION OR REGENERATION BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST???

Postby branham1965 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:15 am

Roger,

Were you Baptized as an infant or as an adult???







Spiritblade Disciple wrote:Please, provide one clear scriptural example of a child that was born to Christian parents being baptized as an adult.




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