Dake Bible Discussion BoardEternal Security

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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luchnia
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby luchnia » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:25 am

Often I have had to deal with this very same subject. Many simply believe that folks that lied to Jesus actually did the things they proclaim. Yet clearly recorded are the words "ye workers of iniquity" and I often asked what is the work of iniquity that He is speaking of? Is it healing? Is it casting out devils? Is it lying about doing good? What good fruit is it?

Rarely does anyone want to put this in the context given. Look at how Jesus leads off by saying, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. If we would just cling to that truth, then you would have your rationale. Notice carefully, "Saieth to me".

How is doing the will of God, iniquity? We know doing the work of God is not iniquity and Jesus would not have spoken against that as you can see in part b of the same verse. He even made the statement in another text that who is for us is not against us. Obviously these folks were not of the same leadership.

This is one of those text that causes a lot of reasoning between folks because of assumption. It is automatically assumed that people do what they say they will do. If one assumes they did these things, then they would have to go back and assume many things that were said from lying sources would be true in actions. This is certainly not the first case of this.

Outside of given examples that prove otherwise, that would change the entire context of God's word. Take these words, "Ye shall not surely die." True of False? We know they are false, yet if we put the standard of them being true as we did for those that Jesus said worked iniquity we run into a challenging situation. Why do we need to make the words spoken out of the mouths of workers of iniquity true?

What rationale can be given to make the workers of iniquity's words true and satan's words not true? Now the question may be asked, at any point in time could people actually do good works? That could be a resounding yes. Look at many of Jesus followers that did good, but fell away. it was not just a handful but many that left Him (Jn 6:66).

It is scriptural fact that they were at one point saved and doing the work of God, yet this was not what Jesus was dealing with at the time. That did not come up in this context. He was dealing with false prophets and describing good and bad fruit. He acknowledge deceit and evil works in pronouncing what He would say to such people that did not do the work of God and spoke lies to Him.


Word up!

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:11 am

Thank you



olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Wed Aug 23, 2017 4:05 pm

Jesus speaking to the pharisees in Matthew 12:27,

"And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children(disciples) cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."

Mat. 10: 24 " The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord."

Jesus said that the pharisees' disciples were casting out devils and a disciple is not above his master. From all indications those pharisees were not saved, yet their disciples were casting out devils. By what means and were they saved?



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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:06 pm

olindquist wrote:Jesus speaking to the pharisees in Matthew 12:27,

"And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children(disciples) cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."

Mat. 10: 24 " The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord."

Jesus said that the pharisees' disciples were casting out devils and a disciple is not above his master. From all indications those pharisees were not saved, yet their disciples were casting out devils. By what means and were they saved?


Satan, who causes sickness by demon oppression (Acts 10:38; Luke 13:11-16) can take off what he puts on without opposing himself or casting himself out. When he can damn a soul by getting a person to deny the essentials of the Bible that will save the soul, then it is to his advantage to deceive by taking away the sickness. Many people accept false religions that promise healing and the benefits. Satan cooperates with these religions, which he himself founded to deceive men. He heals people without their faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Such people naturally think they are in the true religion. They reject Christ and see no need of getting saved from sin or following Christianity.

Josephus says that Pharisees practiced exorcism (Antiquities, Book V!!!, 2-5; cp. Acts 18:13). Jesus named their practice to disprove their accusation about Him. If you and your disciples cast out demons, then it proves that you also are of the devil (v 27-28).


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:34 am

[quote="Ironman"]
"Satan, who causes sickness by demon oppression (Acts 10:38; Luke 13:11-16) can take off what he puts on without opposing himself or casting himself out. When he can damn a soul by getting a person to deny the essentials of the Bible that will save the soul, then it is to his advantage to deceive by taking away the sickness. Many people accept false religions that promise healing and the benefits. Satan cooperates with these religions, which he himself founded to deceive men. He heals people without their faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Such people naturally think they are in the true religion. They reject Christ and see no need of getting saved from sin or following Christianity."

I agree that Satan does those above things. Does this above principle apply to Matthew 12:27. Jesus said they were cast out rather than left voluntarily.

Are we seeing a pattern here with other examples I have brought to our attention?

1) Unsaved disciples of pharisees casting out devils.

2) Judas who was sent out to cast out devils whom Jesus called a devil in John 6:70?

3) The many in Matthew 7:22 who said they cast out devils in Jesus name whom He said He never knew?

The question may now be is: "what is the common denominator that gave all these "unsaved" people the ability to cast out devils?"



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bibleman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:37 am

olindquist wrote:
Ironman wrote:"Satan, who causes sickness by demon oppression (Acts 10:38; Luke 13:11-16) can take off what he puts on without opposing himself or casting himself out. When he can damn a soul by getting a person to deny the essentials of the Bible that will save the soul, then it is to his advantage to deceive by taking away the sickness. Many people accept false religions that promise healing and the benefits. Satan cooperates with these religions, which he himself founded to deceive men. He heals people without their faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Such people naturally think they are in the true religion. They reject Christ and see no need of getting saved from sin or following Christianity."

I agree that Satan does those above things. Does this above principle apply to Matthew 12:27. Jesus said they were cast out rather than left voluntarily.

Are we seeing a pattern here with other examples I have brought to our attention?

1) Unsaved disciples of pharisees casting out devils.

2) Judas who was sent out to cast out devils whom Jesus called a devil in John 6:70?

3) The many in Matthew 7:22 who said they cast out devils in Jesus name whom He said He never knew?

The question may now be is: "what is the common denominator that gave all these "unsaved" people the ability to cast out devils?"


No disrespect intended but it seems you are living in lala land!


God bless
Leon Bible

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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:23 pm

bibleman wrote:
olindquist wrote:
Ironman wrote:"Satan, who causes sickness by demon oppression (Acts 10:38; Luke 13:11-16) can take off what he puts on without opposing himself or casting himself out. When he can damn a soul by getting a person to deny the essentials of the Bible that will save the soul, then it is to his advantage to deceive by taking away the sickness. Many people accept false religions that promise healing and the benefits. Satan cooperates with these religions, which he himself founded to deceive men. He heals people without their faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Such people naturally think they are in the true religion. They reject Christ and see no need of getting saved from sin or following Christianity."

I agree that Satan does those above things. Does this above principle apply to Matthew 12:27. Jesus said they were cast out rather than left voluntarily.

Are we seeing a pattern here with other examples I have brought to our attention?

1) Unsaved disciples of pharisees casting out devils.

2) Judas who was sent out to cast out devils whom Jesus called a devil in John 6:70?

3) The many in Matthew 7:22 who said they cast out devils in Jesus name whom He said He never knew?

The question may now be is: "what is the common denominator that gave all these "unsaved" people the ability to cast out devils?"


No disrespect intended but it seems you are living in lala land!


:angel:


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Spiritblade Disciple
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Thu Aug 24, 2017 8:31 pm

olindquist wrote:The question may now be is: "what is the common denominator that gave all these "unsaved" people the ability to cast out devils?"

If unsaved people have the power to cast out devils... What do any of Christ's miracles prove about Him?



olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:13 pm

[quote="Spiritblade Disciple" "
If unsaved people have the power to cast out devils... What do any of Christ's miracles prove about Him?[/quote]

What do the antichrist's miracles prove about him?

2 Thes. 2:9 "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders."
It means be careful because miracles can fool even the elect.



olindquist
Stand Against the Wiles of the Devil
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:17 pm

Ironman wrote:
bibleman wrote:
olindquist wrote:
Ironman wrote:"Satan, who causes sickness by demon oppression (Acts 10:38; Luke 13:11-16) can take off what he puts on without opposing himself or casting himself out. When he can damn a soul by getting a person to deny the essentials of the Bible that will save the soul, then it is to his advantage to deceive by taking away the sickness. Many people accept false religions that promise healing and the benefits. Satan cooperates with these religions, which he himself founded to deceive men. He heals people without their faith in Jesus Christ and His work on the cross. Such people naturally think they are in the true religion. They reject Christ and see no need of getting saved from sin or following Christianity."

I agree that Satan does those above things. Does this above principle apply to Matthew 12:27. Jesus said they were cast out rather than left voluntarily.

Are we seeing a pattern here with other examples I have brought to our attention?

1) Unsaved disciples of pharisees casting out devils.

2) Judas who was sent out to cast out devils whom Jesus called a devil in John 6:70?

3) The many in Matthew 7:22 who said they cast out devils in Jesus name whom He said He never knew?

The question may now be is: "what is the common denominator that gave all these "unsaved" people the ability to cast out devils?"


No disrespect intended but it seems you are living in lala land!



No offence taken guys!!

:angel:




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