Dake Bible Discussion BoardEternal Security

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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bibleman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:49 pm

olindquist wrote:Do you believe that all of the death penalty sins (not just murder) require prmeditation in order to incur the death penalty once committed? Please do not answer the question with a question.


I have never said that murder requires premeditation.

I don't think premeditation is required to sin.


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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 9:53 pm

olindquist wrote:Hi Bibleman

I want to answer your question about what other types of murders there are besides premeditated. I'm no expert on criminal law but I am aware of a couple of others:

1) Involuntary manslaughter - which is not premeditated but unlawful. Ex) Moses killing the Egyptian or a man walks in on his wife committing adultery chokes the guy and he dies.

2) Self-defense

According to crimianl law degrees of punishment if any depends alot on person's state of mind prior and during the incident plus circumstances around it.
I would appreciate an answer to my last question when you can get around to it. It would be helpful to clarify things regarding our discussion up to this point. Thanks.


OK my responses follow your comments.

1) Involuntary manslaughter - which is not premeditated but unlawful. Ex) Moses killing the Egyptian or a man walks in on his wife committing adultery chokes the guy and he dies.

Moses killing the Egyptian was murder. and choking a guy until he dies is murder.

2) Self-defense

Self-defense is not murder.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:08 pm

bibleman wrote:
olindquist wrote:Hi Bibleman

I want to answer your question about what other types of murders there are besides premeditated. I'm no expert on criminal law but I am aware of a couple of others:

1) Involuntary manslaughter - which is not premeditated but unlawful. Ex) Moses killing the Egyptian or a man walks in on his wife committing adultery chokes the guy and he dies.

2) Self-defense

According to crimianl law degrees of punishment if any depends alot on person's state of mind prior and during the incident plus circumstances around it.
I would appreciate an answer to my last question when you can get around to it. It would be helpful to clarify things regarding our discussion up to this point. Thanks.


OK my responses follow your comments.

1) Involuntary manslaughter - which is not premeditated but unlawful. Ex) Moses killing the Egyptian or a man walks in on his wife committing adultery chokes the guy and he dies.

Moses killing the Egyptian was murder. and choking a guy until he dies is murder.

2) Self-defense

Self-defense is not murder.


Totally agree :angel: Self defence is God ordained.

Proverbs 25:26, A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.

Luke 22:36, Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Jesus knew the disciples may come across thieves and robbers who would kill them for any money or belongings they carried, so He told them to arm themselves in self defence.

John 10:10, The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:42 pm

Even though many countries no longer carry out the death penalty, the death penalty is also God sanctioned.

Genesis 9:6, Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:51 pm

Good points Ironman! Self-defense and capital punishment are God sanctioned and are not considered murder. I'd like to get back on point about my original theme for this post and the idea of death penalty sins and the idea of once committing one of these listed in the scriptures given by Dake and bibleman that a person incurs the death penalty if not immediately confessed and repented of regardless if a person has knowledge of it or not.

The book of Ephesians is obviously written to believers for in v. 1 he calls them saints and faithful in Christ Jesus, that they are holy and without blame before Him in love. Chapter 2 seated with Christ in heavenly places.

Now here is something interesting in chapter 4 he tells them to stop lying and stealing. If they were doing these things why would he call them those things in chapters 1 and 2 if these are death penalty sins and incur the death penalty. It seems to me there a knowledge of and time factor involved in renewing the mind. He says to stop doing these things so you don't grieve the Holy Spirit and not that you are going to hell.



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:15 pm

olindquist wrote:Good points Ironman! Self-defense and capital punishment are God sanctioned and are not considered murder. I'd like to get back on point about my original theme for this post and the idea of death penalty sins and the idea of once committing one of these listed in the scriptures given by Dake and bibleman that a person incurs the death penalty if not immediately confessed and repented of regardless if a person has knowledge of it or not.

The book of Ephesians is obviously written to believers for in v. 1 he calls them saints and faithful in Christ Jesus, that they are holy and without blame before Him in love. Chapter 2 seated with Christ in heavenly places.

Now here is something interesting in chapter 4 he tells them to stop lying and stealing. If they were doing these things why would he call them those things in chapters 1 and 2 if these are death penalty sins and incur the death penalty. It seems to me there a knowledge of and time factor involved in renewing the mind. He says to stop doing these things so you don't grieve the Holy Spirit and not that you are going to hell.


Not agreeing with your exegesis BUT what are you saying? That Christians can lie and steal all they want and NOT incur the death penalty that Paul said in Romans 3:23 that they would?


God bless
Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:27 pm

That knowledge of sin and the conscience does make a difference in incurring the death penalty. Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:13 because he did things in ignorance and unbelief he obtained mercy. I know that was before his conversion but I think that is a principle that I see in scripture with God and His mercy.

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin willfully after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Sinning willfully requires knowledge of it doesn't it?



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:55 pm

olindquist wrote:That knowledge of sin and the conscience does make a difference in incurring the death penalty. Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:13 because he did things in ignorance and unbelief he obtained mercy. I know that was before his conversion but I think that is a principle that I see in scripture with God and His mercy.

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin willfully after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Sinning willfully requires knowledge of it doesn't it?


SO... You can kill your wife, drown your children, set fire to the whole 3rd grade class at school horribly burning all the children, and cut into pieces the Pastor at church and eat him as you roast his wife on a fire pit.... AND as long as your conscience does not bother you and you don't know it is wrong... YOU are still OK with God and NO sin is imputed to you????

I don't see how you can believe that!


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:59 am

bibleman wrote:
olindquist wrote:That knowledge of sin and the conscience does make a difference in incurring the death penalty. Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:13 because he did things in ignorance and unbelief he obtained mercy. I know that was before his conversion but I think that is a principle that I see in scripture with God and His mercy.

Hebrews 10:26-27 If we sin willfully after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. Sinning willfully requires knowledge of it doesn't it?


SO... You can kill your wife, drown your children, set fire to the whole 3rd grade class at school horribly burning all the children, and cut into pieces the Pastor at church and eat him as you roast his wife on a fire pit.... AND as long as your conscience does not bother you and you don't know it is wrong... YOU are still OK with God and NO sin is imputed to you????

I don't see how you can believe that!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I also don't believe God would be OK with that Bibleman.

You would also know there are probably millions of people living now, and in days gone by who have never heard of God, Jesus, the Bible, God's Word, who will be judged by God, not according to the Law or commandments, but by the way they lived their lives in the society they were born and raised in. Killing your wife or anyone for that matter, drowning your children, setting fire to the whole 3rd grade class at school horribly burning all the children, and cutting into pieces the Pastor at church and eat him as you roast his wife on a fire pit, will guarantee one a direct and permanent trip to eternal Hell.

Paul wrote in Romans 2:11-15;

Romans 2:11, For there is no respect of persons with God.
12, For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14, For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15, Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

V. 16, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. 16, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:45 am

Bibleman that response is not even rationale. It's obvious somewhere along the way you got offended.
"A brother offended is harder to be won then a strong city and their contentions are like the bars of a castle." proverbs 17:14

"The wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace".

You need to really prayerfully consider the purpose of this discussion board and that it is honoring to God.

These replies are no longer constructive.




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