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olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Dake on p. 557 of GPFM point #9 states that Judas was once a saved man. In John 12:6 "This he said not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief Is not that one of the death penalty sins? 1 Cor 6:9-10

Just because he was sent out to heal and cast out devils does that qualify for salvation?

"Lord did not we prophesy in your name and cast out devils?" Jesus replied, "Depart from me, I never knew you"



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by bibleman »

olindquist wrote:Dake on p. 557 of GPFM point #9 states that Judas was once a saved man. In John 12:6 "This he said not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief Is not that one of the death penalty sins? 1 Cor 6:9-10

Just because he was sent out to heal and cast out devils does that qualify for salvation?

"Lord did not we prophesy in your name and cast out devils?" Jesus replied, "Depart from me, I never knew you"
Remember the book of John was written AFTER all the events of the book of John had already taken place.

Note also that Matthew 7:22 says: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works?"

Doesn't say they did it - it just says they will say they did it.


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olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Thanks Bibleman,
You wrote
"Remember the book of John was written AFTER all the events of the book of John had already taken place. "

I'm not understanding how that makes a difference with Judas being a thief and Dake saying he was once saved.

You're right with pointing out that "Many will say". I can't see how people will get away with or ever to try to lie at judgment day.



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by bibleman »

olindquist wrote:Thanks Bibleman,
You wrote
"Remember the book of John was written AFTER all the events of the book of John had already taken place. "

I'm not understanding how that makes a difference with Judas being a thief and Dake saying he was once saved.

You're right with pointing out that "Many will say". I can't see how people will get away with or ever to try to lie at judgment day.
Judas could have become a thief AFTER his salvation experience - thus backsliding!


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

bibleman wrote
"Judas could have become a thief AFTER his salvation experience - thus backsliding!"

Perhaps, I just don't see enough evidence in scripture to support that Judas was saved. In John 6:70 Jesus called Judas a devil which appears to be somewhere in the middle of His ministry.

I know Peter in Acts 1:17 said Judas "was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry". I don't know if being saved is a requirement for that.



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by Ironman »

olindquist wrote:bibleman wrote
"Judas could have become a thief AFTER his salvation experience - thus backsliding!"

Perhaps, I just don't see enough evidence in scripture to support that Judas was saved. In John 6:70 Jesus called Judas a devil which appears to be somewhere in the middle of His ministry.

I know Peter in Acts 1:17 said Judas "was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry". I don't know if being saved is a requirement for that.
Judas, the apostle Judas is an outstanding example of a man once saved who was lost because of sin. In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread which is an idiom of close friendship (Ps. 41:9) v.9, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
He was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13) v. 12, For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
v. 13, But it was thou, a man, mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living(Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt.26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.
In Matt 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sickness and disease and a call to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, "freely ye have received, freely give. . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20. These statements prove that Judas was once a chosen and genuine apostle. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.
The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and we should believe what the Holy Spirit tells us in Luke. It was not until the last supper that the devil entered into Judas, that is became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the Passover that he put it in the heart of Judas to go to the enemies of Jesus to betray Him into their hands (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2).It was at this time he openly broke with Christ and sought opportunity to betray Him.
Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayed (Matt. 27:3-5). He could have repented and been forgiven as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide.
It was because he committed suicide rather than truly repent that he was lost.
He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal life (1 Sam.28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). udas was a saved man because his name was written in God's book of life. he was called a devil, just a Peter was called Satan by Jesus;
Matthew 16:23, But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter also denied Christ three times before men;
Matthew 26:34, Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Matthew 26:75, And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Jesus also said this;
Matthew 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Luckily Peter wept in tears and repented.
Judas had his name written in God's book of life just as Peter did, but sadly instead of repenting of his sin, he brooded over it and took his own life.
He like Satan by transgression fell.
Act 1:25, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Because he never repented, but took his own life his name was removed from God's book and his place was taken by another, "Matthias."
Acts 1: 20-23, For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
    21, Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
    22, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
    23, And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Judas, instead of repenting, overcoming, brooded over his sin and committed suicide and his bishoprick was taken by another;
Revelation 3:5, He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(God's plan for man and the Dake Bible.)


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Thanks Ironman for taking the time with putting those things together. That is very good. I'm still not convinced that all these scriptures and comments prove that Judas was once saved and I''ll comment on the scriptures that I have in bold print below. But I do believe the reasons Dake uses for Judas being saved is good to discuss in our topic of eternal security. Comments below after your post.

Ironman wrote:
Judas, the apostle Judas is an outstanding example of a man once saved who was lost because of sin. In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who ate of His bread which is an idiom of close friendship (Ps. 41:9) v.9, "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
He was not an enemy of Christ, but an equal in grace, a guide, and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12-13) v. 12, For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
v. 13, But it was thou, a man, mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
He was to have his habitation desolate and be blotted out of the book of the living(Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Matt.26:24; John 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.
In Matt 10 we have the facts recorded that Judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sickness and disease and a call to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all the twelve, "freely ye have received, freely give. . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Matt. 10:1-20. These statements prove that Judas was once a chosen and genuine apostle. In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they (Judas included) cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.
The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and we should believe what the Holy Spirit tells us in Luke. It was not until the last supper that the devil entered into Judas, that is became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the Passover that he put it in the heart of Judas to go to the enemies of Jesus to betray Him into their hands (Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2).It was at this time he openly broke with Christ and sought opportunity to betray Him.
Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayed (Matt. 27:3-5). He could have repented and been forgiven as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooded over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide.
It was because he committed suicide rather than truly repent that he was lost.
He committed suicide and must be lost, for no murderer has eternal life (1 Sam.28:7-25; 31:1-6; 1 John 3:15; Gal. 5:19-21). udas was a saved man because his name was written in God's book of life. he was called a devil, just a Peter was called Satan by Jesus;
Matthew 16:23, But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter also denied Christ three times before men;
Matthew 26:34, Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Matthew 26:75, And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.
Jesus also said this;
Matthew 10:33, But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Luckily Peter wept in tears and repented.
Judas had his name written in God's book of life just as Peter did, but sadly instead of repenting of his sin, he brooded over it and took his own life.
He like Satan by transgression fell.
Act 1:25, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Because he never repented, but took his own life his name was removed from God's book and his place was taken by another, "Matthias."
Acts 1: 20-23, For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
    21, Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
    22, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
    23, And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Judas, instead of repenting, overcoming, brooded over his sin and committed suicide and his bishoprick was taken by another;
Revelation 3:5, He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

(God's plan for man and the Dake Bible.)
1) Friendship- In the garden of gethsemene when Judas betrayed him Jesus called him friend. Mat 26:50 Do you believe at that time Judas was saved when He called him friend?
2) My acquantance, my guide, my equal. That sounds like perhaps many people who go to church and are not saved.
3) Comparison of Peter and Judas. Jesus actually called Judas a devil in John 6 but was speaking to Satan that was influencing Peter because just prior to that Jesus said that the Father had given Peter revelation about Him being the Christ. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail, there is no recording of Jesus praying that for Judas.
4) Psalm 69:27-28- No solid evidence of that being Judas
5) Power to heal and cast out devils. This may be evidence of him being saved.Does delegated authority like that prove salvation. The disciples were cowards in the upper room until Pentecost. The 70 other disciples had same assignment as the 12 and many disciples did not follow Jesus anymore after He said they must eat His flesh and drink His blood.
6) By transgression fell in Acts 1 - Is that from being saved or just his position. Was his position as an apostle evidence that he was saved?

So I am not at this point convinced either way because I see scriptures for both sides and I'm not sure the examples used for Judas being saved are applicable. The above points are good to consider in the light of eternal security.



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by Ironman »

"1) Friendship- In the garden of gethsemene when Judas betrayed him Jesus called him friend. Mat 26:50 Do you believe at that time Judas was saved when He called him friend?
2) My acquantance, my guide, my equal. That sounds like perhaps many people who go to church and are not saved.
3) Comparison of Peter and Judas. Jesus actually called Judas a devil in John 6 but was speaking to Satan that was influencing Peter because just prior to that Jesus said that the Father had given Peter revelation about Him being the Christ. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith would not fail, there is no recording of Jesus praying that for Judas.
4) Psalm 69:27-28- No solid evidence of that being Judas
5) Power to heal and cast out devils. This may be evidence of him being saved.Does delegated authority like that prove salvation. The disciples were cowards in the upper room until Pentecost. The 70 other disciples had same assignment as the 12 and many disciples did not follow Jesus anymore after He said they must eat His flesh and drink His blood.
6) By transgression fell in Acts 1 - Is that from being saved or just his position. Was his position as an apostle evidence that he was saved?

So I am not at this point convinced either way because I see scriptures for both sides and I'm not sure the examples used for Judas being saved are applicable. The above points are good to consider in the light of eternal security"
.

Judas had his name written in God's book of life in Heaven as proved by Acts 1:20 with Psalms 69:25-29.

Acts 1: 20, For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Judas lost his bishoprick that left 11 apostles The 11 cast lost and the lot fell upon Matthias, Judas was replaced by Matthias;

Act 1:26, And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Psalms 69: 25-29. V. 25, Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26, For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27, Add iniquity unto0 their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28, Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
29, But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.

You wrote;

5) Power to heal and cast out devils. This may be evidence of him being saved.Does delegated authority like that prove salvation. This was positive evidence that Judas was saved for Jesus gave him and the other 12, who stayed with Him power to cast out devils and heal the sick.

Would Satan cast out Satan? Jesus said;

Matthew 12:26, And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Mark 3:23, And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Luke 11:18,If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

These few Scriptures should convince you Judas was a saved man who by transgression fell. Judas fell from what, from sin, from a high tree, from a chair? No, Judas fell from salvation. Jesus prayed to the Father that of all those the Father had given Him He lost only one.

John 17:12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus could not have lost Judas if He never had him, if he was never ever saved.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Thanks Ironman,
"Judas had his name written in God's book of life " Where is the specific scripture for that statement and not quoting other scriptures that may not apply to your statement.

Act 1:26, And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
I'm not seeing how that proves Judas was saved

Psalms 69: 25-29. V. 25, Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26, For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27, Add iniquity unto0 their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28, Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.
29, But I am poor and sorrowful: let thy salvation, O God, set me up on high.


Not seeing how that applies to Judas.

Would Satan cast out Satan? Jesus said;

Matthew 12:26, And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Mark 3:23, And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?

Luke 11:18,If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.


Matthew 7:22-23 " Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord .....and in thy name have cast out devils?
v.23 And then will I (Jesus) profess unto them, I never knew you...

These few Scriptures should convince you Judas was a saved man who by transgression fell. Judas fell from what, from sin, from a high tree, from a chair? No, Judas fell from salvation. Jesus prayed to the Father that of all those the Father had given Him He lost only one.

Still not convinced yet. And no I did not think that that scripture referred to him falling from a chair or tree.

John 17:12, While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Not seeing how that scripture proves Judas was saved.

Jesus could not have lost Judas if He never had him, if he was never ever saved.

The above scripture said that Judas was lost not that Jesus lost him. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost, lost doesn't mean that people were once saved by being lost.

I think the real debatable scriptures have to do with the casting out of devils.

1) Were the people in Mat. 7 lying. I can't see how anyone can lie at at judgement or before the throne of God. In Job it seems that Satan and the angels of God are either reporting what they are doing, accusing the saints, or being directed by God (ex. saying to Satan you can not kill Job)
2) Was Judas really actually casting out devils or just along for the journey.
3) Was that delegated authority and did that prove salvation.



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by Ironman »

Judas, "by transgression fell." What did he fall from if it was not from God's grace, from salvation?

And seeing you do not believe all those Scriptures are referring to the apostle Judas, who do you believe they are referring to?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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