Dake Bible Discussion BoardEternal Security

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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luchnia
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby luchnia » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:21 am

olindquist wrote:Jesus speaking to the pharisees in Matthew 12:27,

"And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children(disciples) cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges."

Mat. 10: 24 " The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord."

Jesus said that the pharisees' disciples were casting out devils and a disciple is not above his master. From all indications those pharisees were not saved, yet their disciples were casting out devils. By what means and were they saved?

For a moment let's consider the rationale you have used to assume that the disciples of the pharisees, the unsaved, were casting out devils. Here is something to ponder about how this sentence has been divided to make it have a meaning other than the figure of speech and meaning that Jesus was using.

Since you assume that the disciples of the pharisees were casting out devils, then by the same standard you have placed on that part of the sentence would you not assume that Jesus cast out devils by Beelzebub because Jesus said so in the very same sentence?

Look at the context and the type of speech Jesus was using here. Does anyone really think that Jesus cast out devils by Beelzebub? Ok, now apply the same rationale to the rest of the statement Jesus made and notice very closely the word "if" which is an indicator of a meaning that is important here.

Jesus says, "IF" I do something, then.... Now just realize that the answer is IF NOT. In other words, I don't cast out demons by the power of Beelzebub and your disciples don't cast out anything. Basically you and your disciples blow some air of darkness out of your lips. The rest of the figure of speech means nothing in that case. Context, context, context :angel:


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olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Can anyone explain how known ministers who have been in a known unrepentant death penalty sin (which would cause them to be unsaved according to Dake's definition) and still flow in the supernatural including casting out devils?

To deny this has happened is either a sign of ignorance or just lying.



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:47 am

olindquist wrote:Can anyone explain how known ministers who have been in a known unrepentant death penalty sin (which would cause them to be unsaved according to Dake's definition) and still flow in the supernatural including casting out devils?

To deny this has happened is either a sign of ignorance or just lying.


Who as an example are you talking about?


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Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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luchnia
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby luchnia » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:57 am

olindquist wrote:Can anyone explain how known ministers who have been in a known unrepentant death penalty sin (which would cause them to be unsaved according to Dake's definition) and still flow in the supernatural including casting out devils?

To deny this has happened is either a sign of ignorance or just lying.
I have never seen a factual instance of one doing such, but one thing is for sure the gifts stay with you as in the case with Solomon and the wisdom that came from God. Nothing about casting out devils though. Remember what happened to the sons of Sceva? Demons wooped 'em terrible. The casting out of devils is an empowerment from God. There are a lot of fluke weird things that go on in the world that are not from light.

Maybe someone will post some biblical examples of backsliders casting out demons, if it can be found. If so, I am to be corrected and one thing is for sure, it ain't of God if they do. I think Jesus would have handled that situation differently if the context were different such as during certain events we see in Revelation.

I am also aware that when needed, satan can utilize some baroque things to imitate the miracles of God, yet only magician's tricks. Remember the magicians that cast down the staffs and turned them into snakes? Of course they found out who the God of heaven is when a real snake ate the other "magic" snakes.


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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:06 pm

It has been a quite a discussion on eternal security and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I want to thank everyone's responses and recap what has come up.

Questions on Eternal Security:

1) Is there more to eternal security than just not committing a death penalty sin (according to Dake's definition)?
2) Can a person, especially a new believer, commit a death penalty sin (according to Dake's def.) with out knowledge of it?
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, is renewing the mind and conscience a factor in eternal security?
4) Is flowing in the supernatural and casting out devils proof that Judas or any other person is/was saved?


Questions to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

1) Is it possible and/or expected for a believer to be baptized and immersed in the Holy Spirit as Jesus was while on earth?
2) Is the Holy Spirit confined to a body here on earth?

There have been strong stances and reasons why on both sides of these questions and I respect each person and their answers.
It is up to us all to answer these questions and not rely on any person for the answer.

The other night my family and I watched the movie Case for Christ. Lee Strobel was out to prove the resurrection was false. He was gathering all this information to prove it didn't happen, and finally the question was asked; When is enough evidence enough. Well once it was for him he wrote the book "The Case for Christ" and has sold millions of copies. So maybe someday I'll write a book on Eternal Security and The Baptism in The Holy Spirit and Bibleman can be the first to endorse it. Or maybe not. Really Big Smile. I respect you Bibleman and will continue to seek the Word on these issues. And if I discover any of my premises are false I will change. Thanks to all.

Have a great weekend all!



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 25, 2017 4:10 pm

olindquist wrote:It has been a quite a discussion on eternal security and the baptism in the Holy Spirit. I want to thank everyone's responses and recap what has come up.

Questions on Eternal Security:

1) Is there more to eternal security than just not committing a death penalty sin (according to Dake's definition)?
2) Can a person, especially a new believer, commit a death penalty sin (according to Dake's def.) with out knowledge of it?
3) If the answer to #2 is yes, is renewing the mind and conscience a factor in eternal security?
4) Is flowing in the supernatural and casting out devils proof that Judas or any other person is/was saved?


Questions to the Baptism in the Holy Spirit

1) Is it possible and/or expected for a believer to be baptized and immersed in the Holy Spirit as Jesus was while on earth?
2) Is the Holy Spirit confined to a body here on earth?

There have been strong stances and reasons why on both sides of these questions and I respect each person and their answers.
It is up to us all to answer these questions and not rely on any person for the answer.

The other night my family and I watched the movie Case for Christ. Lee Strobel was out to prove the resurrection was false. He was gathering all this information to prove it didn't happen, and finally the question was asked; When is enough evidence enough. Well once it was for him he wrote the book "The Case for Christ" and has sold millions of copies. So maybe someday I'll write a book on Eternal Security and The Baptism in The Holy Spirit and Bibleman can be the first to endorse it. Or maybe not. Really Big Smile. I respect you Bibleman and will continue to seek the Word on these issues. And if I discover any of my premises are false I will change. Thanks to all.

Have a great weekend all!


You have a great weekedn as well.... :angel:

I think if I take you advice I should backslide (murder, kill, cuss, lie, cheat) so I can cast devils out! And not only that these liars and sinners who cast out devils must also do a lot of praying and fasting - to get some devils out. Seems as if you think Sinners are closer to God than Christians are!

What you think?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:45 pm

olindquist wrote:Can anyone explain how known ministers who have been in a known unrepentant death penalty sin (which would cause them to be unsaved according to Dake's definition) and still flow in the supernatural including casting out devils?

To deny this has happened is either a sign of ignorance or just lying.

Or, it's mistaking a fraud for the real thing... Not everything that glitters is gold...



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luchnia
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby luchnia » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:07 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
olindquist wrote:Can anyone explain how known ministers who have been in a known unrepentant death penalty sin (which would cause them to be unsaved according to Dake's definition) and still flow in the supernatural including casting out devils?

To deny this has happened is either a sign of ignorance or just lying.

Or, it's mistaking a fraud for the real thing... Not everything that glitters is gold...

:angel: As are the majority of events today that claim to be from God.


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olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Tue Sep 19, 2017 4:34 pm

After Jesus rose again and before Pentecost it is recorded in John 20:22 "And when He has said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

They were already born again any were not yet baptized in the Holy Spirit at this time, what measure of the Holy Spirit did the disciples receive when Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 before Pentecost?



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:53 pm

olindquist wrote:After Jesus rose again and before Pentecost it is recorded in John 20:22 "And when He has said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit".

They were already born again any were not yet baptized in the Holy Spirit at this time, what measure of the Holy Spirit did the disciples receive when Jesus breathed on them in John 20:22 before Pentecost?

Given what is said by Him in 20:23, my guess is that the priestly measure was given to them at that time.




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