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olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Thanks Ironman,
Ironman wrote:Judas, "by transgression fell." What did he fall from if it was not from God's grace, from salvation?

And seeing you do not believe all those Scriptures are referring to the apostle Judas, who do you believe they are referring to?
What specific transgression do you think that refers to when it says "by transgression fell". If it was his betrayal or his thieving ways Jesus already called him a devil way back in John 6:70 before his betrayal or the anointing at Bethany that referred him to being a thief.

I believe he fell from his apostleship in Acts 1 to what you are quoting.



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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Post by Ironman »

olindquist wrote:Thanks Ironman,
Ironman wrote:Judas, "by transgression fell." What did he fall from if it was not from God's grace, from salvation?

And seeing you do not believe all those Scriptures are referring to the apostle Judas, who do you believe they are referring to?
What specific transgression do you think that refers to when it says "by transgression fell". If it was his betrayal or his thieving ways Jesus already called him a devil way back in John 6:70 before his betrayal or the anointing at Bethany that referred him to being a thief.

I believe he fell from his apostleship in Acts 1 to what you are quoting.
Judas was a ordinary man, the son of Simon(John 6:71; 12:4; 13:2, 26); a genuine chosen and empowered apostle (Matt. 10:1-20; Mark 3:14-19; Luke 6:12-16; 9:1-10; Acts 1:17); he was the treasurer of the disciples (John12:4-6; 13:29); and he was a successful preacher and healer (Mark 6:7-13; Luke 9:10).

He was named "Iscariot," meaning "man of Kerioth," a place in Juda (Josh 15:25).

He became a "thief" and an "adversary" of Christ late in his ministry (John 6:70; 12:4-6) He betrayed Jesus Matt. 26:14-16, 47-50; Mark 14:10-11, 43-45; Luke22:3-6, 47-49; John 13:2; 18:2-5; Acts 1:16-25), He returned the money to the chief priests (Matt. 27:3-10), he committed suicide and is then lost (Matt. 26-24;; 27:5; Mark 14:21; Luke 22:22; John 17:12; Acts 1:16-25).

Prophecies concerning him (Matt. 26:21-25; Mark 14:18-21; Luke 22:21-23; John 13:18-26; 17:12; Acts 1:16, 2o with Psalms 41:9; 69:25; 109:8; Zech. 11:12-13).

Notes from, Dake Bible page 177.

All Judas had to do was repent, just like Peter repented after cursing Jesus three times and denying Him. Had Peter not repented he would have been lost just like Judas. Want proof?

Here read this, Peter, instead of repenting as he did would have been lost as Judas was. If Jesus trusted Judas as a friend, Judas must have been trust worthy at that time. Betrayal implies, presupposes, or takes for granted former loyalty, friendship, or trust. If Judas was not formerly a loyal and trust friend of Jesus, he could not have betrayed Him. If Judas was not a loyal and trusted friend, who was a genuine follower of Him, He would not have chosen Him to preach the gospel, heal the sick, or cast out devils in the first place. Judas became a devil (John 6:70), but he was not always a devil, for Jesus asked, “How can Satan cast out Satan?” (Mark 3:23).

Matt 10:33, "But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." If Peter had died in his sin, Jesus Christ would have been ashamed of him before all of Heaven and would have publicly denied him before His Father.

Peter denied Christ before men three times, but he repented. Judas brooded over his sin, committed suicide and was removed from the book of life and another took his place.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Good Morning Ironman!

What specific transgression do you feel Judas committed that caused him to fall from salvation as you are saying and referencing in Acts 1:25?



olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Ironman wrote:
And seeing you do not believe all those Scriptures are referring to the apostle Judas, who do you believe they are referring to?
After meditating on Psalm 69 specifically 25-28 I can see the strong argument for Judas being saved because of the statement "Let them be blocked out of the book of the living". The them is apparently talking about the priests and Judas. To me there is no indication of them being saved(the priests). Is the book of life and the book of the living different? In Rev.20 at the great white judgment throne it talks about books and not just one.



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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Post by Ironman »

olindquist wrote:
Ironman wrote:
And seeing you do not believe all those Scriptures are referring to the apostle Judas, who do you believe they are referring to?
After meditating on Psalm 69 specifically 25-28 I can see the strong argument for Judas being saved because of the statement "Let them be blocked out of the book of the living". The them is apparently talking about the priests and Judas. To me there is no indication of them being saved(the priests). Is the book of life and the book of the living different? In Rev.20 at the great white judgment throne it talks about books and not just one.
The book of the living and the book of life are one and the same.

Yes, there will be books opened, including the book of life. People will be judged according to the things they had done and how they lived their lives in the times and the society they were born into during their lives which are written down in other books. If found guilty their names will then be stricken from God's book of life.

Rev. 20: 12, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Even Moses, way back then believed peoples names could be blotted out of God's book of life because of sin;

Exodus 32: 30-33. V. 30, And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31, And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32, Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33, And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Good Morning Ironman. Thank you for your response.

Ironman quoted:
"The book of the living and the book of life are one and the same.
Yes, there will be books opened, including the book of life. People will be judged according to the things they had done and how they lived their lives in the times and the society they were born into during their lives which are written down in other books. If found guilty their names will then be stricken from God's book of life."


After reading over Psalm 69 again, I do not believe the book of Life and the book of Living are the same. I know there may be disagreements with me, you, and the readers (perhaps mild to sharp) but that is ok, I want to be held accountable for my reasonings.

Here are my reasonings in not believing that they are the same:
Psalm 69:27-28
Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

1. In those passages it refers to them (more than one) rather than him - the them seems to be three groups of people
a. the soldiers - vs. 21& 26
b. the religious leaders - vs. 19
c. Judas - vs. 25

I believe we would all agree that those refered to in a and b were not saved and therefore how could they be blotted out of the book of life if that is what it is referring to?

2. Let them not come into thy righteousness and not be written with the righteous speaks of one thing that has never been attained and and blot them out of the book of the living speaks of another thing that has already been attained. The people in the book of the living could refer to all people who must make a decision before death and after death have no more of a chance to make a decision. Heb. 9:27

I am still not convinced that Judas was saved.



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by bibleman »

olindquist wrote: I am still not convinced that Judas was saved.
Hi,

Was reading this yesterday and thought it might help you from Mark 3:22-30.

Let's break it down:

Jesus asked: Mark 3:23 How can Satan cast out Satan?

Jesus stated that Mark 3:24 ...a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Jesus stated that Mark 3:24 ...a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

Jesus stated: Mark 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end."

Jesus stated: Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus said concerning HIMSELF that: Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation: 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

QUESTION???

Do you believe that Jesus cast out devils by the power of the devil or by the power of God?


God bless
Leon Bible

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http://www.dakebible.com
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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

Hi bibleman,
bibleman wrote:
QUESTION???

Do you believe that Jesus cast out devils by the power of the devil or by the power of God?
Power of God.

This is the one issue that I stated before can be debatable in regards to Judas being saved or not. I understand the argument.
There are so many other scriptures that prove he was not saved before the betrayal. The other arguments that have been brought up to prove his salvation I've given reasons why I don't think prove that he was saved. With that being in mind, my question about the casting out of devils and Judas are:

1) Mat 7:22 - were they lying or not.
2) Does delegated authority when Jesus sent the 12 out to cast out devils prove salvation and/or was Judas just an observer?



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Re: Eternal Security

Post by bibleman »

olindquist wrote:Hi bibleman,
bibleman wrote:
QUESTION???

Do you believe that Jesus cast out devils by the power of the devil or by the power of God?
Power of God.

This is the one issue that I stated before can be debatable in regards to Judas being saved or not. I understand the argument.
There are so many other scriptures that prove he was not saved before the betrayal. The other arguments that have been brought up to prove his salvation I've given reasons why I don't think prove that he was saved. With that being in mind, my question about the casting out of devils and Judas are:

1) Mat 7:22 - were they lying or not.
2) Does delegated authority when Jesus sent the 12 out to cast out devils prove salvation and/or was Judas just an observer?
I agree Jesus cast out devils by the Power of God.

In that Same chapter we read.

Mark 3:13 And he goeth up into a mountain, and calleth unto him whom he would: and they came unto him.
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,
15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
16 And Simon he surnamed Peter;
17 And James the son of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:
18 And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite,
19 And Judas Iscariot, which also betrayed him: and they went into an house.


So do you believe that Judas cast out devils by the power of the devil or by the power of God?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist

Re: Eternal Security

Post by olindquist »

bibleman wrote:

So do you believe that Judas cast out devils by the power of the devil or by the power of God?
Assuming he did and was not an observer, the power of God



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