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olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:11 pm

Is having eternal life and being Christ's disciple synonymous?



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Ironman
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Ironman » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:38 pm

olindquist wrote:Is having eternal life and being Christ's disciple synonymous?


Definition of synonymous
1
:  having the character of a synonym; also :  alike in meaning or significance
2
:  having the same connotations, implications, or reference

If you say that one thing is synonymous with another, you mean that the two things are so closely connected in most people's minds that one suggests the other:


Have I become your enemy, because I tell you the truth.

I'll be a fool for truth's sake. Truth is fallen in the street. I wont pass it by. I'll pick it up and embrace it regardless of the costs.

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:35 pm

Was reading today and saw this from Adam Clarke and thought it might interest those following this topic.

A sin which is not unto death—This is an extremely difficult passage, and has been variously interpreted. What is the sin not unto death, for which we should ask, and life shall be given to him that commits it? And what is the sin unto death, for which we should not pray?

I shall note three of the chief opinions on this subject:—

1. It is supposed that there is here an allusion to a distinction in the Jewish law, where there was ‏חטאה למיתה‎ chattaah lemithah, "a sin unto death;" and ‏חטאה לא למיתה‎ chattaah lo lemithah, "a sin not unto death;" that is,

A. A sin, or transgression, to which the law had assigned the punishment of death; such as idolatry, incest, blasphemy, breach of the Sabbath, and the like. And

B. A sin not unto death, i.e. transgressions of ignorance, inadvertence, etc., and such is, in their own nature, appear to be comparatively light and trivial. That such distinctions did exist in the Jewish synagogue both Schoettgen and Carpzovius have proved.

2. By the sin not unto death, for which intercession might be made, and unto death, for which prayer might not be made, we are to understand transgressions of the civil law of a particular place, some of which must be punished with death, according to the statutes, the crime admitting of no pardon: others might be punished with death, but the magistrate had the power of commuting the punishments, i.e. of changing death into banishment, etc., for reasons that might appear to him satisfactory, or at the intercession of powerful friends. To intercede in the former case would be useless, because the law would not relax, therefore they need not pray for it; but intercession in the latter case might be prevalent, therefore they might pray; and if they did not, the person might suffer the punishment of death. This opinion, which has been advanced by Rosenmuller, intimates that men should feel for each other's distresses, and use their influence in behalf of the wretched, nor ever abandon the unfortunate but where the case is utterly hopeless.

3. The sin unto death means a case of transgression, particularly of grievous backsliding from the life and power of godliness, which God determines to punish with temporal death, while at the same time he extends mercy to the penitent soul. The disobedient prophet, 1 Kings 13:1-32, is, on this interpretation, a case in point: many others occur in the history of the Church, and of every religious community. The sin not unto death is any sin which God does not choose thus to punish. This view of the subject is that taken by the late Rev. J. Wesley, in a sermon entitled, A Call to Backsliders.—Works, vol ii. page 239.
I do not think the passage has any thing to do with what is termed the sin against the Holy Ghost; much less with the popish doctrine of purgatory; nor with sins committed before and after baptism, the former pardonable, the latter unpardonable, according to some of the fathers. Either of the last opinions (viz., 2 and 3) make a good sense; and the first (1) is not unlikely: the apostle may allude to some maxim or custom in the Jewish Church which is not now distinctly known. However, this we know, that any penitent may find mercy through Christ Jesus; for through him every kind of sin may be forgiven to man, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; which I have proved no man can now commit. See the note on Matthew 12:31, Matthew 12:39 (note).

Adam Clarke, Adam Clarke's Commentary, (New York: Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, 1826), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "1 John".


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:47 pm

In regards to whether eternal life and being Christ's disciples are synonymous:

In Hebrews 10:26 "If we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth..."

In 1 Timothy 2:4 "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" and is a conjunction word which means in addition to.

Jesus said in John 8:31-32 "if you continue in my word you are my disciples indeed and you shall know the [u]truth[/u] and the truth shall make you free"

Is maintaining eternal security more than just avoiding the death penalty sins or is it rather walking in the truth as we receive it?

Luke 14:26-27 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."

Here are some examples of what appears to lose salvation that are not listed in the references as death penalty sins.
1. Jonah's disobedience
2. the unprofitable servant in the parable of the talents
3. King Saul's disobedience to God's command which Samuel said "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" As far as I know the Bible is unclear where King Saul is spending eternity



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:34 pm

olindquist wrote:In regards to whether eternal life and being Christ's disciples are synonymous:

In Hebrews 10:26 "If we sin willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth..."

In 1 Timothy 2:4 "God desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" and is a conjunction word which means in addition to.

Jesus said in John 8:31-32 "if you continue in my word you are my disciples indeed and you shall know the [u]truth[/u] and the truth shall make you free"

Is maintaining eternal security more than just avoiding the death penalty sins or is it rather walking in the truth as we receive it?

Luke 14:26-27 "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sister, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple."

Here are some examples of what appears to lose salvation that are not listed in the references as death penalty sins.
1. Jonah's disobedience
2. the unprofitable servant in the parable of the talents
3. King Saul's disobedience to God's command which Samuel said "rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry" As far as I know the Bible is unclear where King Saul is spending eternity



Here are 42 OT Death Penalty Sins that you might consider in relation to OT sins.

Forty-two Death-Penalty Sins
1. Murder (Gen. 9:6; Ex. 21:12-14,20,23; Lev. 24:17,21; Num. 35:16-34; Dt. 19)
2. Failing to circumcise (Gen. 17:14; Ex. 4:24-25)
3. Eating leavened bread during the feast of unleavened bread (Ex. 12:15,19)
4. Smiting parents (Ex. 21:15)
5. Kidnapping (Ex. 21:16; Dt. 24:7)
6. Cursing parents (Ex. 21:17; Lev. 20:9)
7. Negligence with animals that kill (Ex. 21:28-32)
8. Witchcraft (Ex. 22:18)
9. Bestiality (Ex. 22:19; Lev. 18:23-29; 20:15-16)
10. Idolatry (Ex. 22:20)
11. Making holy anointing oil (Ex. 30:33)
12. Putting holy anointing oil on strangers (Ex. 30:33)
13. Making the holy perfume (Ex. 30:38)
14. Defiling the sabbath (Ex. 31:14)
15. Working on the sabbath (Ex. 35:2)
16. Eating the flesh of the peace offering in uncleanness (Lev. 7:20-21)
17. Eating the fat of sacrifices (Lev. 7:25)
18. Killing sacrifices other than at the door of the tabernacle (Lev. 17:1-9)
19. Eating blood (Lev. 17:10-14)
20. Incest (Lev. 18:6-29; 20:11-22)
21. Eating sacrifices at the wrong time (Lev. 19:5-8)
22. Consecration of children to idols (Lev. 20:1-5)
23. Spiritualism (Lev. 20:6,27)
24. Adultery (Lev. 20:10; Dt. 22:22-30)
25. Sodomy -- homosexuality (Lev. 20:13)
26. Relationship with a menstruous woman (Lev. 20:18)
27. Whoredom (Lev. 21:9; Dt. 22:21-22)
28. Sacrilege (Lev. 22:3)
29. Refusing to fast on day of atonement (Lev. 23:29)
30. Working on day of atonement (Lev. 23:30)
31. Blasphemy (Lev. 24:11-16)
32. Failure to keep the passover (Num. 9:13)
33. Presumptuous sins (Num. 15:30-31)
34. Gathering firewood on the sabbath (Num. 15:32-36)
35. Failure to purify self before worship (Num. 19:13,20)
36. False prophecy (Dt. 13:1-18; 18:20)
37. Leading men away from God (Dt. 13:6-18)
38. Backsliding (Dt. 17:2-7)
39. Stubbornness and rebellion (Dt. 21:18-23)
40. Gluttony (Dt. 21:20-23)
41. Drunkenness (Dt. 21:20-23)
42. False dreams and visions (Dt. 13:1-18)

The New Testament teaches the death penalty for certain crimes (Rom. 13:1-7; 1Tim. 1:8-10; Jas. 2:10-13; 4:11-12; 1Pet. 2:13-15). Both testaments list many sins that damn the soul and incur the eternal death penalty -- the lake of fire (Jer. 23; Ezek. 3:18; Mk. 7:20-23; Rom. 1:18-32; 1Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Col. 3:5-10; 2Pet. 2; Jude 1:3-19). Though the law of Moses has been abolished, the same sins it condemned (except sabbath-breaking) are now condemned in New Testament scriptures.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 9".


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:33 pm

Interesting and helpful. Thanks for taking the time and effort to post that.



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:25 pm

bibleman wrote:Was reading today and saw this from Adam Clarke and thought it might interest those following this topic.

A sin which is not unto death—This is an extremely difficult passage, and has been variously interpreted. What is the sin not unto death, for which we should ask, and life shall be given to him that commits it? And what is the sin unto death, for which we should not pray?

I shall note three of the chief opinions on this subject:—

1. It is supposed that there is here an allusion to a distinction in the Jewish law, where there was ‏חטאה למיתה‎ chattaah lemithah, "a sin unto death;" and ‏חטאה לא למיתה‎ chattaah lo lemithah, "a sin not unto death;" that is,

A. A sin, or transgression, to which the law had assigned the punishment of death; such as idolatry, incest, blasphemy, breach of the Sabbath, and the like. And

B. A sin not unto death, i.e. transgressions of ignorance, inadvertence, etc., and such is, in their own nature, appear to be comparatively light and trivial. That such distinctions did exist in the Jewish synagogue both Schoettgen and Carpzovius have proved.

2. By the sin not unto death, for which intercession might be made, and unto death, for which prayer might not be made, we are to understand transgressions of the civil law of a particular place, some of which must be punished with death, according to the statutes, the crime admitting of no pardon: others might be punished with death, but the magistrate had the power of commuting the punishments, i.e. of changing death into banishment, etc., for reasons that might appear to him satisfactory, or at the intercession of powerful friends. To intercede in the former case would be useless, because the law would not relax, therefore they need not pray for it; but intercession in the latter case might be prevalent, therefore they might pray; and if they did not, the person might suffer the punishment of death. This opinion, which has been advanced by Rosenmuller, intimates that men should feel for each other's distresses, and use their influence in behalf of the wretched, nor ever abandon the unfortunate but where the case is utterly hopeless.

3. The sin unto death means a case of transgression, particularly of grievous backsliding from the life and power of godliness, which God determines to punish with temporal death, while at the same time he extends mercy to the penitent soul. The disobedient prophet, 1 Kings 13:1-32, is, on this interpretation, a case in point: many others occur in the history of the Church, and of every religious community. The sin not unto death is any sin which God does not choose thus to punish. This view of the subject is that taken by the late Rev. J. Wesley, in a sermon entitled, A Call to Backsliders.—Works, vol ii. page 239.
I do not think the passage has any thing to do with what is termed the sin against the Holy Ghost; much less with the popish doctrine of purgatory; nor with sins committed before and after baptism, the former pardonable, the latter unpardonable, according to some of the fathers. Either of the last opinions (viz., 2 and 3) make a good sense; and the first (1) is not unlikely: the apostle may allude to some maxim or custom in the Jewish Church which is not now distinctly known. However, this we know, that any penitent may find mercy through Christ Jesus; for through him every kind of sin may be forgiven to man, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; which I have proved no man can now commit. See the note on Matthew 12:31, Matthew 12:39 (note).

Adam Clarke, Adam Clarke's Commentary, (New York: Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, 1826), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "1 John".


It is interesting, Leon. That's for sure.

It is almost a strange way to go about interpreting the text.

I doubt that those to whom John wrote this epistle had such difficulty in understanding it.



olindquist
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Re: Eternal Security

Postby olindquist » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:06 am

Dake on p. 557 of GPFM point #9 states that Judas was once a saved man. In John 12:6 "This he said not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief Is not that one of the death penalty sins? 1 Cor 6:9-10

Just because he was sent out to heal and cast out devils does that qualify for salvation?

"Lord did not we prophesy in your name and cast out devils?" Jesus replied, "Depart from me, I never knew you"



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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:50 am

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
bibleman wrote:Was reading today and saw this from Adam Clarke and thought it might interest those following this topic.

A sin which is not unto death—This is an extremely difficult passage, and has been variously interpreted. What is the sin not unto death, for which we should ask, and life shall be given to him that commits it? And what is the sin unto death, for which we should not pray?

I shall note three of the chief opinions on this subject:—

1. It is supposed that there is here an allusion to a distinction in the Jewish law, where there was ‏חטאה למיתה‎ chattaah lemithah, "a sin unto death;" and ‏חטאה לא למיתה‎ chattaah lo lemithah, "a sin not unto death;" that is,

A. A sin, or transgression, to which the law had assigned the punishment of death; such as idolatry, incest, blasphemy, breach of the Sabbath, and the like. And

B. A sin not unto death, i.e. transgressions of ignorance, inadvertence, etc., and such is, in their own nature, appear to be comparatively light and trivial. That such distinctions did exist in the Jewish synagogue both Schoettgen and Carpzovius have proved.

2. By the sin not unto death, for which intercession might be made, and unto death, for which prayer might not be made, we are to understand transgressions of the civil law of a particular place, some of which must be punished with death, according to the statutes, the crime admitting of no pardon: others might be punished with death, but the magistrate had the power of commuting the punishments, i.e. of changing death into banishment, etc., for reasons that might appear to him satisfactory, or at the intercession of powerful friends. To intercede in the former case would be useless, because the law would not relax, therefore they need not pray for it; but intercession in the latter case might be prevalent, therefore they might pray; and if they did not, the person might suffer the punishment of death. This opinion, which has been advanced by Rosenmuller, intimates that men should feel for each other's distresses, and use their influence in behalf of the wretched, nor ever abandon the unfortunate but where the case is utterly hopeless.

3. The sin unto death means a case of transgression, particularly of grievous backsliding from the life and power of godliness, which God determines to punish with temporal death, while at the same time he extends mercy to the penitent soul. The disobedient prophet, 1 Kings 13:1-32, is, on this interpretation, a case in point: many others occur in the history of the Church, and of every religious community. The sin not unto death is any sin which God does not choose thus to punish. This view of the subject is that taken by the late Rev. J. Wesley, in a sermon entitled, A Call to Backsliders.—Works, vol ii. page 239.
I do not think the passage has any thing to do with what is termed the sin against the Holy Ghost; much less with the popish doctrine of purgatory; nor with sins committed before and after baptism, the former pardonable, the latter unpardonable, according to some of the fathers. Either of the last opinions (viz., 2 and 3) make a good sense; and the first (1) is not unlikely: the apostle may allude to some maxim or custom in the Jewish Church which is not now distinctly known. However, this we know, that any penitent may find mercy through Christ Jesus; for through him every kind of sin may be forgiven to man, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; which I have proved no man can now commit. See the note on Matthew 12:31, Matthew 12:39 (note).

Adam Clarke, Adam Clarke's Commentary, (New York: Abingdon-Cokesbury Press, 1826), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "1 John".


It is interesting, Leon. That's for sure.

It is almost a strange way to go about interpreting the text.

I doubt that those to whom John wrote this epistle had such difficulty in understanding it.


Thanks Roger,

How do you understand it?


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Eternal Security

Postby bibleman » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:53 am

olindquist wrote:Dake on p. 557 of GPFM point #9 states that Judas was once a saved man. In John 12:6 "This he said not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief Is not that one of the death penalty sins? 1 Cor 6:9-10

Just because he was sent out to heal and cast out devils does that qualify for salvation?

"Lord did not we prophesy in your name and cast out devils?" Jesus replied, "Depart from me, I never knew you"


Remember the book of John was written AFTER all the events of the book of John had already taken place.

Note also that Matthew 7:22 says: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out demons? and in your name done many wonderful works?"

Doesn't say they did it - it just says they will say they did it.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note


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