Dake Bible Discussion BoardBelieve ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

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branham1965
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby branham1965 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:12 pm

Hi Roger. :scatter:

What on earth is a " partialist " ?? :mrgreen:



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:17 pm

branham1965 wrote:Hi Roger. :scatter:

What on earth is a " partialist " ?? :mrgreen:

Someone who believes only part of humanity will be saved.



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luchnia
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby luchnia » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:21 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
luchnia wrote:There are some out there that believe since Jesus took away the sin of the world, there is nothing they can do one way or the other. I think it is universalist that believe that what He did suffices and there is nothing for them to do. They tend to forget the repent and forsake sin part of God's word. They can go sin like the devil and call it a day because Jesus paid it all.

We have to use caution as to how we present take away the sin of the world.

You raise a good point about using caution in how it is presented.

Also, having studied a little bit of what some Universalists believe, not all believe "that what He did suffices and there is nothing for them to do." Also, not all of them "tend forget the repent and forsake sin part of God's word." And, not all of them believe "they can go sin like the devil and call it a day because Jesus paid it all."

There seems to be a wide spectrum of beliefs amongst Universalists. Certainly, some of them believe as you describe, but there are some Partialists that fit that description of Universalists you describe, too.

I agree with you and I think it important for us to understand not to paint things with a wide brush and I often will just take it for granted that others get the point I am trying to make. Just like in many circles not all believe as others. I know people that are in the catholic group that I believe are saved. Thanks for pointing that out.


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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Thu May 04, 2017 8:43 pm

:angel: :angel:



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Doc » Mon May 08, 2017 8:03 am

Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?


I think we should do everything that Jesus tells us to do, but I don't think we are doomed to loss of salvation when we do not especially when there may be extenuating circumstances.

I had an incident at church just yesterday when a woman complained to me in a bible study that one of the other pastors told his class that he believes that a person who does not fulfill the great commission is not truly saved.

I thought the the statement to be out of line and not true.



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:35 am

Doc wrote:
Thanks for your input - I hear your heart and mostly agree. I would add the word "obey" to "(adhere to, rely on, trust in) Jesus Christ."

And as to Dake's influence by the Church of God... Well Dake was only affiliated with the Church of God for about 6 years (1942-1948) so his influence from them was not begun until he was about 40 years old. But I would not expect everyone to know that, many people associate Dake with the Church of God much more than it actually was, so no problem there.

But that be as it may....

"The young man quoted a lot from Jesus when He was alive, and it is all great truth, but it's pre death and resurrection. It is a lot of legal pre NT John the Baptist Law. It's a very heavily works laden teaching. Once Jesus went to the cross, even the OT saints who had been awaiting their release from Hades finally were set free by the Blood of Christ."

How do we reconcile that statement with Jesus words?

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


1) Does Jesus not tell us here (after the cross) to TEACH believers "all things whatsoever I have commanded you:"

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

2) Was Jesus wrong to tell us to Keep HIS words?

3) What words of Jesus are we NOT to keep today?


I think we should do everything that Jesus tells us to do, but I don't think we are doomed to loss of salvation when we do not especially when there may be extenuating circumstances.

I had an incident at church just yesterday when a woman complained to me in a bible study that one of the other pastors told his class that he believes that a person who does not fulfill the great commission is not truly saved.

I thought the the statement to be out of line and not true.


Thanks Doc!

So in regard to your response: "I think we should do everything that Jesus tells us to do, but I don't think we are doomed to loss of salvation when we do not especially when there may be extenuating circumstances."

I hear you there! Let's take for example when Jesus talked about forgiveness.

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


If I hear you right... If we felt we were hurt so badly that we could NOT forgive... then that would be OK to continue to walk in bitterness and unforgiveness toward someone else that Jesus commanded/suggested we forgive.

Therefore we are NOT held accountable to do the command/suggestion concerning forgiveness. And the Lord allows us to violate His commands/suggestions and still go to Heaven anyway.

Have I got it right?


God bless
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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

titus213
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby titus213 » Mon May 08, 2017 8:40 am

there have always been two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Mon May 08, 2017 9:11 am

titus213 wrote::angel: there are two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.


Thanks titus213,

I think the problem arises when people confuse laws of the NT with "the law" of Moses. Just because the law of Moses was done away in Christ... does that mean that all other laws of the NT, Christians are no longer to keep those laws what-so-ever? That there are NO laws that the Christian MUST keep that would continue to carry the death-penalty?

Are Christians of the NT released from keeping "the law" of Moses and all the laws of the NT as well?

Such as Christ's law on forgiveness! Are Christians released from having to keep that law because of grace?

Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

titus213
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby titus213 » Mon May 08, 2017 12:43 pm

I think the problem arises when people confuse laws of the NT with "the law" of Moses. Just because the law of Moses was done away in Christ... does that mean that all other laws of the NT, Christians are no longer to keep those laws what-so-ever? That there are NO laws that the Christian MUST keep that would continue to carry the death-penalty?

Of course the Christian is expected to obey the commands of the law. In fact, due to the new birth only the Christian is actually able to obey them (Romans 8:7-8). Now that we as Christians have this ability, we cannot be content to continue in sin and disobedience. We have an obligation to obey. This is Paul’s point in Rom 6:1-14. But our motivation for actually obeying them isn’t to escape the death penalty. Christ’s death has paid our penalty of eternal hell: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1).

What is the motivation? “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Are Christians of the NT released from keeping "the law" of Moses and all the laws of the NT as well?

Nope. Grace doesn't change our obligation. We are not under law as a way of salvation (Romans 6:14), but we are always under law as a way of life.

Such as Christ's law on forgiveness! Are Christians released from having to keep that law because of grace?
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


No. But in the context that “law” is not talking about salvation, but about the hypocrisy of a disciple who comes asking God to forgive him for his wrongdoing while harboring unforgiveness toward others. It’s the spirit of presumption that Jesus is warning against, much as He does in the Lord's Prayer. Prayer is a tremendous power, as His disciples have just witnessed. But it can’t be used for the gratification of personal grudges. God’s willingness to forgive us is limited by our willingness to forgive others.



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Mon May 08, 2017 1:04 pm

titus213 wrote:I think the problem arises when people confuse laws of the NT with "the law" of Moses. Just because the law of Moses was done away in Christ... does that mean that all other laws of the NT, Christians are no longer to keep those laws what-so-ever? That there are NO laws that the Christian MUST keep that would continue to carry the death-penalty?

Of course the Christian is expected to obey the commands of the law. In fact, due to the new birth only the Christian is actually able to obey them (Romans 8:7-8). Now that we as Christians have this ability, we cannot be content to continue in sin and disobedience. We have an obligation to obey. This is Paul’s point in Rom 6:1-14. But our motivation for actually obeying them isn’t to escape the death penalty. Christ’s death has paid our penalty of eternal hell: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1).

What is the motivation? “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Are Christians of the NT released from keeping "the law" of Moses and all the laws of the NT as well?

Nope. Grace doesn't change our obligation. We are not under law as a way of salvation (Romans 6:14), but we are always under law as a way of life.

Such as Christ's law on forgiveness! Are Christians released from having to keep that law because of grace?
Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.


No. But in the context that “law” is not talking about salvation, but about the hypocrisy of a disciple who comes asking God to forgive him for his wrongdoing while harboring unforgiveness toward others. It’s the spirit of presumption that Jesus is warning against, much as He does in the Lord's Prayer. Prayer is a tremendous power, as His disciples have just witnessed. But it can’t be used for the gratification of personal grudges. God’s willingness to forgive us is limited by our willingness to forgive others.


Thanks titus213

You said: "But our motivation for actually obeying them isn’t to escape the death penalty. Christ’s death has paid our penalty of eternal hell: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1)."

I believe you left out the rest of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."

You said: "What is the motivation? “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments” (John 14:15)."

ANd if we do not keep his commandments then we do NOT love him according to Jesus.

You said: "We are not under law as a way of salvation (Romans 6:14), but we are always under law as a way of life."

So then according to you I can murder my wife, and "as a way of life" I should not do that. BUT as to salvation it is OK to murder my wife, and I will still go to Heaven! I don't agree.

You said:" But in the context that “law” is not talking about salvation, but about the hypocrisy of a disciple who comes asking God to forgive him for his wrongdoing while harboring unforgiveness toward others."

So If I understand you right Jesus WILL forgive the person regardless of HIM saying that HE would not forgive the person. And if not then what is Jesus going to do with all these unforgiven people when they get to Heaven. Will God ever forgive them through out all eternity.

My friend - seems from your answers... you are involved in the ultra-grace movement big time,

And if I am wrong... then please tell me a few NT sins that will keep people our of Heaven, if Christians should commit them?


God bless
Leon Bible

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http://www.dakebible.com
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https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note


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