Dake Bible Discussion BoardBelieve ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

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titus213
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby titus213 » Mon May 08, 2017 1:56 pm

I believe you left out the rest of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
Nope. Those words are not in the earlier manuscripts at 8:1. But they are in v.4 where they identify those for whom the "requirement of the Law" (ie that sin must be punished by death) has been met: those "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

AND if we do not keep his commandments then we do NOT love him according to Jesus.
True

So then according to you I can murder my wife, and "as a way of life" I should not do that. BUT as to salvation it is OK to murder my wife, and I will still go to Heaven! I don't agree.
That is a classic straw man argument, as I'm sure you know. I didn't say that so you're merely putting words in my mouth. To make the law a matter of salvation for the Christian is classic Galatianism -- a sinner becomes saved by grace, but stays saved by works. Paul fought this error just as hard as he did the error which says "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?"

So If I understand you right Jesus WILL forgive the person regardless of HIM saying that HE would not forgive the person.
Which shows you don't understand me right.

And if I am wrong... then please tell me a few NT sins that will keep people our of Heaven, if Christians should commit them?
When I warn people about the possibility of falling from grace and losing salvation I usually focus on the fact that the key to staying saved is the same as becoming saved: faith in the atoning blood of Christ.

So the question then is, How can that saving and staying faith die? I point to 3 ways: spiritual suicide (deliberately renouncing Christ, as the people we read about in Hebrews were contemplating); spiritual starvation (where a person doesn't use the means God has provided to deepen his roots in the faith, as in Matthew 13:5-6, 20-21); and spiritual strangulation (by sin being allowed to continue and even grow with no effort to overcome it, as in Matthew 13:7, 22).

So no, I don't teach that because God’s grace forgives all sins it doesn't matter if we keep on sinning (Rom 6:1). As Paul so clearly explains, becoming a Christian involves not just forgiveness but also regeneration, in which we are raised up from a state of spiritual death (Eph 2:1,5) to walk in a new spiritual life where sin does not belong (Rom 6:2-14). And if someone continues to live a life controlled by the sins of the flesh, he will surely go back into that state of spiritual death: "because if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13).



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Mon May 08, 2017 2:13 pm

titus213 wrote:I believe you left out the rest of Romans 8:1 "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit."
Nope. Those words are not in the earlier manuscripts at 8:1. But they are in v.4 where they identify those for whom the "requirement of the Law" (ie that sin must be punished by death) has been met: those "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

AND if we do not keep his commandments then we do NOT love him according to Jesus.
True

So then according to you I can murder my wife, and "as a way of life" I should not do that. BUT as to salvation it is OK to murder my wife, and I will still go to Heaven! I don't agree.
That is a classic straw man argument, as I'm sure you know. I didn't say that so you're merely putting words in my mouth. To make the law a matter of salvation for the Christian is classic Galatianism -- a sinner becomes saved by grace, but stays saved by works. Paul fought this error just as hard as he did the error which says "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?"

So If I understand you right Jesus WILL forgive the person regardless of HIM saying that HE would not forgive the person.
Which shows you don't understand me right.

And if I am wrong... then please tell me a few NT sins that will keep people our of Heaven, if Christians should commit them?
When I warn people about the possibility of falling from grace and losing salvation I usually focus on the fact that the key to staying saved is the same as becoming saved: faith in the atoning blood of Christ.

So the question then is, How can that saving and staying faith die? I point to 3 ways: spiritual suicide (deliberately renouncing Christ, as the people we read about in Hebrews were contemplating); spiritual starvation (where a person doesn't use the means God has provided to deepen his roots in the faith, as in Matthew 13:5-6, 20-21); and spiritual strangulation (by sin being allowed to continue and even grow with no effort to overcome it, as in Matthew 13:7, 22).

So no, I don't teach that because God’s grace forgives all sins it doesn't matter if we keep on sinning (Rom 6:1). As Paul so clearly explains, becoming a Christian involves not just forgiveness but also regeneration, in which we are raised up from a state of spiritual death (Eph 2:1,5) to walk in a new spiritual life where sin does not belong (Rom 6:2-14). And if someone continues to live a life controlled by the sins of the flesh, he will surely go back into that state of spiritual death: "because if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13).


Got to go to a funeral will give further input later.

But make no mistake about it you are firmly in the ultra grace camp.

According to you if a Christian commits a murder it doesn't matter - they are still saved and on their way to Heaven according to your ultra grace teaching.

Very sad indeed!


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Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Mon May 08, 2017 6:16 pm

bibleman wrote:But make no mistake about it you are firmly in the ultra grace camp.

Hi, Leon,

Would you consider Kenneth E. Hagin to have been in the Ultra-Grace Camp?
What about Dr. Frederick K.C. Price?



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Mon May 08, 2017 6:46 pm

Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
bibleman wrote:But make no mistake about it you are firmly in the ultra grace camp.

Hi, Leon,

Would you consider Kenneth E. Hagin to have been in the Ultra-Grace Camp?
What about Dr. Frederick K.C. Price?


No I would not put them in the ultra grace camp when you look at the whole of their ministry. In fact Ken Jr. Teaches against it.

But that being said... they are maybe closer to ultra grace than the Bible on the topic.

Sad.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Mon May 08, 2017 8:44 pm

Here is what Dake said about the subject!

When God said to Adam, “Ye shall surely die,” he meant it; and when He says to saved men today that the soul that sinneth it shall die, He means it. This applies to all men who sin and saved men today are no exception. Both Adam and Eve believed the first teacher of unconditional eternal security, the devil, and lost eternal life. So it is today with all who sin and believe the modern lie of the devil that sinning-saints cannot be lost.
Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 665.


Now apparently you guys think differently, and that is your right.

But because it is your right to believe error it does not mean it IS BIBLE!

You are teaching Christians that they can sin and still go to heaven, which is no salvation at all.

I am sticking with the Bible.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. (KJV)


God bless
Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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branham1965
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby branham1965 » Mon May 08, 2017 10:00 pm

Dad Hagin was NOT in the ultra grace camp.

He never taught such a thing.





bibleman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
bibleman wrote:But make no mistake about it you are firmly in the ultra grace camp.

Hi, Leon,

Would you consider Kenneth E. Hagin to have been in the Ultra-Grace Camp?
What about Dr. Frederick K.C. Price?


No I would not put them in the ultra grace camp when you look at the whole of their ministry. In fact Ken Jr. Teaches against it.

But that being said... they are maybe closer to ultra grace than the Bible on the topic.

Sad.



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branham1965
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby branham1965 » Mon May 08, 2017 10:02 pm

Pastor,

could you briefly explain the second one please??




titus213 wrote:there have always been two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.



titus213
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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby titus213 » Tue May 09, 2017 9:52 am

Hi Billy,

Brief explanation: Galatianism (or as some call it, Judaizing) comes from the false teaching Paul fought against in the Book of Galatians. It’s the claim that a person can ultimately be saved by Jesus Christ ONLY if he keeps the commandments of God.
- - - - -
Long explanation: Often it’s taught like this: I am saved at first by the grace of Jesus Christ, then I am kept saved by obedience to the commandments of some law. In the final analysis this means I will only be saved if I am good enough. This was behind the hypocrisy of Peter that Paul got so upset about in Galatians 2. As Paul says, Peter was in effect nullifying the grace of God, because “if righteousness comes through law, then Christ died needlessly.”

What this false teaching misses is this fact: According to the Bible, even one sin creates a debt of punishment that we ourselves can never pay with our obedience, because “whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

This is why we must rely on the grace of Jesus Christ alone, unmixed with our works, as our only way into heaven. Even the most obedient believer fails to keep all the commands as soon as he stumbles over one! We all deserve punishment. But Jesus took that penalty upon Himself. THAT is the basis of our salvation.

Does this mean that a Christian can murder someone and still go to heaven (as Leon keeps saying I believe)? Of course not. The faith that saves is a faith that obeys. The believer is a new creation in Christ, with a new heart and a new nature. He WANTS to obey Christ’s commands, and is now ABLE to. The Holy Spirit is now living in him and giving direction to his life. This is Paul’s emphasis in Romans 6-8.

But can the Christian still choose to walk according to the flesh rather than according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4)? Yes, according to Romans 8:12-13. And if a believer DOES continue to make that choice, what will happen? Paul tells us: “if you are living according to the flesh, you must die” (8:13). To “die” cannot mean die physically, because that will happen to us anyway. Paul means to die spiritually by reverting to an unsaved condition . . . to die eternally in hell. This is why I said previously that our faith in Christ (which leads us to obey and enables us to obey) can be strangled by our decision to “continue in sin so that grace may increase” (Romans 6:1).


branham1965 wrote:Pastor,

could you briefly explain the second one please??




titus213 wrote:there have always been two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.



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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby bibleman » Tue May 09, 2017 10:39 am

titus213 wrote:Hi Billy,

Brief explanation: Galatianism (or as some call it, Judaizing) comes from the false teaching Paul fought against in the Book of Galatians. It’s the claim that a person can ultimately be saved by Jesus Christ ONLY if he keeps the commandments of God.
- - - - -
Long explanation: Often it’s taught like this: I am saved at first by the grace of Jesus Christ, then I am kept saved by obedience to the commandments of some law. In the final analysis this means I will only be saved if I am good enough. This was behind the hypocrisy of Peter that Paul got so upset about in Galatians 2. As Paul says, Peter was in effect nullifying the grace of God, because “if righteousness comes through law, then Christ died needlessly.”

What this false teaching misses is this fact: According to the Bible, even one sin creates a debt of punishment that we ourselves can never pay with our obedience, because “whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all” (James 2:10).

This is why we must rely on the grace of Jesus Christ alone, unmixed with our works, as our only way into heaven. Even the most obedient believer fails to keep all the commands as soon as he stumbles over one! We all deserve punishment. But Jesus took that penalty upon Himself. THAT is the basis of our salvation.

Does this mean that a Christian can murder someone and still go to heaven (as Leon keeps saying I believe)? Of course not. The faith that saves is a faith that obeys. The believer is a new creation in Christ, with a new heart and a new nature. He WANTS to obey Christ’s commands, and is now ABLE to. The Holy Spirit is now living in him and giving direction to his life. This is Paul’s emphasis in Romans 6-8.

But can the Christian still choose to walk according to the flesh rather than according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4)? Yes, according to Romans 8:12-13. And if a believer DOES continue to make that choice, what will happen? Paul tells us: “if you are living according to the flesh, you must die” (8:13). To “die” cannot mean die physically, because that will happen to us anyway. Paul means to die spiritually by reverting to an unsaved condition . . . to die eternally in hell. This is why I said previously that our faith in Christ (which leads us to obey and enables us to obey) can be strangled by our decision to “continue in sin so that grace may increase” (Romans 6:1).

branham1965 wrote:Pastor,

could you briefly explain the second one please??

titus213 wrote:there have always been two perversions of grace we are always needing to be on guard against: the hyper grace attitude, and Galatianism which mixes the keeping of some kind of law with grace.


Thank you for your further explanation, it is most helpful in understanding your point of view.

1) BUT above you say: This is why we must rely on the grace of Jesus Christ alone, unmixed with our works, as our only way into heaven.

2) THEN you say: Does this mean that a Christian can murder someone and still go to heaven (as Leon keeps saying I believe)? Of course not.

In point 1 you say: "unmixed with our works"

In point 2 you say: the work of "murder" can keep someone out of Heaven.

This is talking out of both sides of our mouths to believe such.

The truth is man is saved by grace AND works. (If not all would be saved)
And he stays saved by grace AND works! (If not no one would ever lose their salvation)

YOU prove that statement by saying that a Christian who commits murder does NOT go to Heaven. What kept him out of Heaven? The fact that his WORK of murder or the LACK of a work of righteousness (not murder) was committed. So here you are admitting that it is NOT grace alone that keeps one saved.

Naturally, men are saved by grace, but not without the free and voluntary choice of acceptance of the work of Christ and proper confession of sins to God and faith in the blood of Christ. All the grace of God in existence could not save one soul if that soul refused the merits of that grace. Thus, in the final analysis, man governs his personal salvation by his power of free choice. Salvation is naturally the work of God for man, but God cannot save man without his free consent and co-operation with God from the new birth to the grave. So the idea that man's salvation depends only on the grace of God and on grace alone, and that it is the work of God only and the work of God alone, is false. Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 339.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Re: Believe ONLY and be saved? Anderson? Swaggart?

Postby Spiritblade Disciple » Tue May 09, 2017 6:37 pm

bibleman wrote:
Spiritblade Disciple wrote:
bibleman wrote:But make no mistake about it you are firmly in the ultra grace camp.

Hi, Leon,

Would you consider Kenneth E. Hagin to have been in the Ultra-Grace Camp?
What about Dr. Frederick K.C. Price?


No I would not put them in the ultra grace camp when you look at the whole of their ministry. In fact Ken Jr. Teaches against it.

But that being said... they are maybe closer to ultra grace than the Bible on the topic.

Sad.

I think they were both more Ultra-Grace than Dake, for sure.




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