Dake Bible Discussion BoardBible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2428
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by branham1965 »

bibleman wrote:
Bible Reading Destroys the Church (Part 1 of 2), by Paul Penley

Would Jesus promote personal Bible reading? You probably never thought to ask yourself that question.

Protestant Christians assume getting a Bible into everyone’s hand is a good thing. Christian donors pump hundreds of millions into Bible translation and distribution every year. With that money, Biblica, Wycliffe and The Seed Company crank out translations in new languages. Scripture Union promotes Bible reading plans. Faith Comes By Hearing and

YouVersion build out robust apps with audio Bibles. GoTandem even texts daily Bible verses selected for your season in life.

I wonder: Is all this cash and energy well spent? History says “no.”

How the Bible Broke Jesus’ Dream

Jesus had a dream. He envisioned a community of followers who embraced his way and each other. He prayed, “may they be one” (John 17:21). 34,000 church denominations later, his prayer goes unanswered.

Why? What fueled one man after another to split up the church? What made each group think they had the corner on truth and all others had erred? The answer is simple: The Bible.

Image

The history of church division runs parallel to the proliferation of Bible translation. When leaders can individually interpret what the Bible really says, unity doesn’t stand a chance. The graph of church denominations and Bible translations (below) illustrates this dynamic. More Bibles, more languages, and more literacy equal more denominations.
Protestant Reformation: Hey, Everybody Do Your Own Thing, It’s Biblical!

For the first 1500 years of the church, major church denominations didn’t surpass single digits. The split between the Catholic Church (in the Western Roman Empire) and the Orthodox Church (in the East) was dubbed the “Great Schism” of 1054 AD. Why? Because major church splits were so rare. That all changed after the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century.

The Protestants hastened Bible translations into German, French, Spanish, English, etc. More Bibles in everyone’s home meant more individuals could decide what was biblical. So they started new denominations. The refrain Sola Scriptura unwittingly excused any man’s opinions about the Bible from the checks and balances of trusted interpretive traditions and a community of gifted Christian leaders. Me, Jesus and the Bible devalued elders and community.

The Bible + my preferred meaning = 34,000 church divisions.

How have we let that happen for 500 years?

Martin Luther’s Legacy: Individualistic Bible Interpretation

Martin Luther is the Protestant superhero. He stuck it to “the man”—the big man in Rome.

On October 31, 1517 he literally stuck his complaints about the Pope and priests on the Wittenberg church door. He called them out for selling salvation. He took away the church’s power to issue forgiveness via “pardon letters” and gave it back to God. And he didn’t stop there.

Luther wrote and taught boldly for the next 3 years. In the summer of 1519 he declared publicly, “The Bible does not give the Pope the exclusive right to interpret scripture.” Anybody can do it.

That claim did not go unnoticed. He was excommunicated from the church in 1520. In 1521, he was called before German authorities at the now famous “Diet of Worms” to face the consequences.

At the Diet of Worms, representatives of the Holy Roman Empire gave Luther one last chance to change his mind.Johann Eck, assistant to the Archbishop of Trier, laid out Luther’s controversial writings on a table. He asked Luther 2 simple questions: Are you the author and do you stand by their contents? Luther was prepared for the first question but not the second. He took credit for the writings, but he asked for a night to prepare an answer to the second question.

The next day Luther came prepared with his reply. His words would become legendary in Protestant circles. His words would embody the individualistic and existential route to determining truth that Protestants have promoted ever since. He said,

“I am bound by the Scriptures I have quoted and my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.”

Martin Luther was so proud of his cleverly crafted response that he saluted Johann Eck like a knight winning a bout. Eck was unimpressed. Luther’s self-proclaimed wit and wisdom would be foiled by Eck’s response.

“Martin, there is not one heresy which has torn apart the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from some interpretation of Scripture. The Bible itself is the * whence each innovator has drawn his deceptive arguments.”

Eck understood the devastating consequences of Luther’s paradigm. Although Luther was right to challenge the supreme authority of the Pope, he swung the Pendulum back too far. The authority to determine the meaning of scripture went from one man to every man. Now “I” and the “Scriptures” were in charge. If you deeply feel the Bible means something, then follow your conscience. That’s Luther’s paradigm, intentionally or unintentionally. The Word of God and the conscience of individual men became self-contained authorities.

The irony of Luther’s rejection of papal decrees and church councils escaped him. He thought he had attributed sole authority to Scripture, yet the Bible itself was formed and finalized by church councils (check out The Fourth Council of Carthage in 419 AD). The very books to which he bound himself rested on decisions of the early Catholic Church.
Later in life Luther’s extreme confidence in his opinions over and against those councils and the Scriptures they selected would become clear. He denigrated the value of Matthew, Mark and Luke and recommended the removal of James, Revelation, and other Bible books that did not suit him. His inner persuasion became the authority for who God is and what we should all believe.

Luther’s unintended legacy has been Bible readers turning their opinions into new versions of the faith. The Bible + my preferred meaning = 34,000 church divisions.

Should We Stop Promoting Personal Bible Reading?

Humanity is constantly threatened by the chaos recorded in Judges: “Everyone did what they felt was right” (Judges 21:25). A world full of independent and untrained Bible interpreters can biblically justify any personal opinion. A Bible in every language can lead just as much to the chaos of “create your own religion” as it does to the truth. Interpreting the Bible on your own does not only demonstrate trust in the Bible’s authority; it betrays radical trust in one’s self. We must interpret and act on the Bible’s message with care.

Should we stop promoting personal Bible reading because it has dashed Jesus’ dream of unity? Let me qualify my answer. If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed ... ul-penley/
Can you believe this! The Devil sure has confused some people!
[/quote]

Billy,

I don't think I have ever heard Ernest Angley say to NOT read the Bible!

Just the opposite. Pray, fast and live in the WORD![/quote]
You are right Reverend Bible.
He has taught this and has done it for 60++++ years.



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by victoryword »

[video][/video]



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by victoryword »

[video][/video]



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by victoryword »

I suppose another theory could be that because of the actions of the pre-adamites, God worked out a plan for man's redemption before He created them in case they went the same route. But that is only speculative and would have to be looked further into from Scripture.



User avatar
Ironman
Fast the Chosen Fast of God... Then Shalt Thou Be Like a Spring of Water, Whose Waters Fail Not
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Ironman »

I believe that because of Lucifer, the one third of the angels he drew with him and the society he ruled on the earth, all of whom rebelled against God and tried to de-throne God, God created man a mortal being, and planned to test man to see if mortal man would also possibly rebel. Man did rebel and because of mans mortality God was able to send the Word, who was God, and who divested Himself of all His God powers, (Became Jesus), took upon Himself mortality so that He could "die" in our place, be raised by the Father, and thereby we can be saved upon accepting Him and believing in Him also, who sent him, as our personal saviour.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by bibleman »

victoryword wrote:I suppose another theory could be that because of the actions of the pre-adamites, God worked out a plan for man's redemption before He created them in case they went the same route. But that is only speculative and would have to be looked further into from Scripture.
Hey Troy,

No problem here on a little disagreement. But here is a little of why I give Dake's views some attention on this subject.
IX. Paul's Teaching on the Overthrow of the Pre–Adamite World

In Eph. 1:4; Heb. 4:3; 9:26, we have Paul's references to the overthrow of the world that then was before Adam. In this first reference he teaches that even as far back as before the foundation (Greek, katabole, from katabollo, “to throw down,” “overthrow,” “disrupt,” or “ruin”) of the world (kosmos, “social order”), God planned to restore the Earth and provide redemption through Christ, should the new creation fail. According to this plan of redemption outlined in Eph. 1:1-14, we have revealed that God has blessed us with all spiritual blessings, chosen us in Christ to be holy, predestinated us to be adopted as children, made us accepted in the beloved, redeemed and forgave us by the blood of Christ, abounded toward us in all wisdom, made known to us His will, gave us an inheritance, and sealed us unto the day of redemption.

In the second reference (Heb. 4:3) we have one of the strongest statements in Scripture that the six days' work of Gen. 1:3–2:25 was “since the foundation [disruption] of the world.” It plainly states that God did His works and that they were finished since the overthrow of the world. The works referred to could not be the original creation of the heavens and the Earth of Gen. 1:1, but the six-days' work of Gen. 1:3–2:25, for the passage says, “God did rest the seventh day from his works” (Heb. 4:3-4). If the works in this passage mean the six-days' work and not the original creation of Gen. 1:1, and if these works were “finished” since the disruption of the world, then the passage proves that before the six days there was a world or social order on the Earth to be destroyed.
In the third passage (Heb. 9:26) we have the fact that Christ did not suffer many times “since the foundation [disruption] of the world” or social system that lived before this disruption, but that He suffered only once “in the end of the world [ages],” to put away the sin of the second social order on Earth; that is, Christ came to redeem the present earth-rebels, who were created since the overthrow of the first earth-rebels.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 129.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by victoryword »

No disagreement. On the contrary, Dake explains it well in that quote, which is kind of what I thought was the direction that he was going. I am not so settled on a position that I can't learn to research if a different understanding is given me.

I also see your points Ironman.



titus213
Do Good to Them that Hate You
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by titus213 »

Acts 2.22-23
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain . . .

1 Peter 1:18-20
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you . . .

Dake comments:
In both places it ("foreordination"/"foreknowledge") refers to God seeing ahead that He would have to send a Savior to redeem man from the fall. In the foreknowledge of God he saw it was necessary to send a Savior for men or his eternal program with them would come to naught. Christ was foreordained before the destruction or overthrow of the pre-Adamite world.

And in his section "The Drafting of God's Plan" in the DARB, he lists the drafting of the plan as prior to the creation of anything.

I agree with Dake. As for Rev. 13:8 the Greek preposition used ('apo') does not mean "after". That would be the Greek preposition 'meta' and a different case (the accusative rather than the genitive).



User avatar
Ironman
Fast the Chosen Fast of God... Then Shalt Thou Be Like a Spring of Water, Whose Waters Fail Not
Posts: 1275
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 11:29 pm

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Ironman »

Thanks Victoryword.

Jesus also said we are to; John 5:39, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." So how are we to do that without some sort of Bible engagement?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2428
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by branham1965 »

macca
i didnt express myself right.let me try again.....

i meant to say it takes the Holy Ghost to teach us the book to really understand it.

if not washed in the Divine Blood and Born New if not walking in the Spirit of the Lord if not yielded to the Lord ............
THE HOLY BIBLE IS A CLOSED BOOK.

thats where all the false doctrine comes in.one can be the most educated Bibleator on earth be an Oxford graduate and deny the Creation of man and his fall,the Virgin Birth,the real Born Again experience,the Rapture,Heaven,Hell and so on.



"FOR THERE MUST BE ALSO HERESIES AMONG YOU,THAT THEY WHICH ARE APPROVED ARE MANIFEST AMONG YOU." 1 COR 11:19

macca wrote:What a load of satanic spew :-|
No word of God in you, you will not stay saved.
Idiots are taking over, don't worry about the Antichrist for the ratbags in the church are more deadly to christians. :crazyeyes:


macca
Last edited by branham1965 on Sat Nov 15, 2014 7:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.



Post Reply