Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

[Grandfather]

Isaiah 55:10-13
"10 For as the rain cometh down,
and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud,
that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth:
it shall not return unto me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
- - - - -
Heb. 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

And.... what does this prove? While these are two wonderful scriptures, I don't see how they support the notion that reading the Bible in an inherently good thing.

[Grandfather]

Is the act of reading the Bible an inherently good thing?

Sides have already been taken on this forum, but again I challenge everyone, myself included, to go back to the original statement: “Let me qualify my answer. If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing.”

Notice again, there is a qualifier in the statement, that IF word. Let me put it another way…. IF someone is reading the Bible to support confusion is it a good thing? Or IF someone is reading the Bible to support division in the church, is it a good thing? Or IF someone is reading the Bible in order to push a personal agenda or politics, is it a good thing?

I would hope that everyone on the forum would agree that those are not good things. Therefor, we cannot use the statement reading the Bible is inherently good simply because of the definition of the word INHERENTLY.

Some here cannot draw the distinction between the Bible being inherently good, and the act of reading it being inherently good and I believe that's a shame because of the further implications that carries, but that’s a discussion for another day.

First, there is none good but God (Mk 10:18, Lk 18:19) so for there to be any inherent goodness God has to be present. Now, while I can make the case for God and His Word being inseparable I will skip it at this time because I will assume everyone on this forum is already aware of that principle. So, I believe we can all agree that the Bible is inherently good, because God is there.

Which brings us to step two, is reading God’s word inherently good? Now, to say it is inherently good, it implies that God- who is good -will be revealed simply by the act of reading regardless of who is doing the reading. Sinner, Saint, Believer, Skeptic, Lover, Hater, Jew and Gentile.

Now several people have posted numbers of scriptures that tell of the good things that occur when people come to the scriptures as so called proof that reading the Bible is inherently good. But I noticed no one posted Hebrews 11.6 - He who comes to God must believe that He is. Why do I mention this? Because if someone is seeking good apart from God it cannot be done, because as mentioned above only God is good! And if I'm reading the Bible apart from God, believing that He is, I will not find good, it's can't be done according to God's word.

Second, if reading the Bible was inherently good for all people, then why did Jesus himself conceal the truth from some people? (Mark 4:12) In fact there are several passages of scriptures where God says he conceals His word from people. Deut 29:4 Is 44:18 are two that come to mind. If reading was inherently good, then there would be no reason for concealment or being blinded to scripture, instead the opposite would be universally true.

Therefore, I agree with the premise the author of the blog put forth -- If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. If, we aren’t reading the Bible to seek God, His plan and His purpose, there is no inherent goodness in the act of reading the Bible. For those that want to be transformed into His image and likeness, it’s a different story and all of the scriptures posted in support of the inherent goodness of reading the Bible points to those people and to those I will agree, but that is not the question the author put forth.

[branham1965]

I have been on here for years .And ive been on another board or two.if it has taught me anything it is WE DO NOT NOT NOT UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE ALIKE IN OUR VARIOUS CHURCHES.


NOT EVEN CLOSE.

[titus213]

God most assuredly is revealed even by the simple act of reading his word, regardless of who is doing the reading.

The word of God is not a dead letter; the power of the Holy Spirit is inherent in it. That is the point of the passage from Isaiah 55 which I quoted. God's word never returns void. That's why Jesus in his most fundamental parable could speak of the word as seed, which inherently has the power to produce.
The Holy Spirit is always present in and with God's word and is able to open hearts and minds to be attentive to what the word says as he did with Lydia in the book of Acts.

The fact that some people resist the Spirit's work through the word is why you see some of the results that you describe; which is the point of the second passage I quoted from the book of Hebrews. The word reveals the thoughts and intents of our hearts. This, too, is a good thing… even though when a person sees his heart he may choose to turn away from the truth God has shown him there. The outcome may not be what God desires, but the reading of the word is nevertheless inherently a good thing even for such a person. Exposure to the seed is never bad in itself according to the parable of the sower which Jesus gave. The seed remains always inherently good and potentially productive.

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Jn 6:63)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn 20:31)

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. (1 Thess 2:13)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable… (2 Tim 3:16)

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. (1 Thess 5:27)

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. (Col 4:16)

Yes, "Sinner, Saint, Believer, Skeptic, Lover, Hater, Jew and Gentile" -- all can and do meet the living God by the simple act of reading his word.

[Grandfather]

God most assuredly is revealed even by the simple act of reading his word, regardless of who is doing the reading.

The word of God is not a dead letter; the power of the Holy Spirit is inherent in it. That is the point of the passage from Isaiah 55 which I quoted. God's word never returns void. That's why Jesus in his most fundamental parable could speak of the word as seed, which inherently has the power to produce.
The Holy Spirit is always present in and with God's word and is able to open hearts and minds to be attentive to what the word says as he did with Lydia in the book of Acts.

The fact that some people resist the Spirit's work through the word is why you see some of the results that you describe; which is the point of the second passage I quoted from the book of Hebrews. The word reveals the thoughts and intents of our hearts. This, too, is a good thing… even though when a person sees his heart he may choose to turn away from the truth God has shown him there. The outcome may not be what God desires, but the reading of the word is nevertheless inherently a good thing even for such a person. Exposure to the seed is never bad in itself according to the parable of the sower which Jesus gave. The seed remains always inherently good and potentially productive.

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. (Jn 6:63)

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (Jn 20:31)

For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. (1 Thess 2:13)

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable… (2 Tim 3:16)

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23)

I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren. (1 Thess 5:27)

And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea. (Col 4:16)

Yes, "Sinner, Saint, Believer, Skeptic, Lover, Hater, Jew and Gentile" -- all can and do meet the living God by the simple act of reading his word.

I'm glad to see you prove the Hebrews 11.6 is a lie.... because anyone that comes to Him must believe that He is..... and what you've "proven" above is that someone who refuses to believe that God is, can come to God by reading. Since you want to avoid the scriptures I've pointed out I will leave you to picking and choosing which scriptures you believe.

[Grandfather]

The fact that some people resist the Spirit's work through the word is why you see some of the results that you describe;

Remember, we are discussing the inherent goodness of reading the Bible, not the inherent goodness of the Bible itself.

Now you are admitting that reading the Bible is not always good in all cases, thereby acknowledging the truth of the point you are trying to disprove and affirming my point. If READING the Bible is inherently good, then it is always good and one cannot resist its goodness. You admit that some can and do resist the goodness of the Bible, that is not proving the inherent goodness of the reading but proving the contrary, that reading is not inherently good. Your points continue to reinforce the inherent goodness of the scriptures, and I cannot refute that position, in fact I have agreed and affirmed that the Bible is inherently good.

Also, the very fact that you acknowledge that some people can and do resist the Spirit's work is proof that the simple act of reading is not inherently good thus acknowledging the authors and my position that unless the desire is godly in accordance with Hebrews 11.6, simply the act of reading the Bible is not INHERENTLY good. Oh it might be good, it can be good, but it is not inherently good.

By the way, do you understand the difference between saying "reading the bible can be good" and "reading the Bible is inherently good" If so please explain it, because your understanding of the difference and my understanding of them are, apparently, worlds apart.

[titus213]

Reading the Bible is inherently good for all the reasons I have already given you. As Jesus said, his words are spirit and life. The Holy Spirit creates faith through the word of God. Your reference in Hebrews 11 refers to those who have already had faith created in them by the word of God… they are ready now to actually come to God, and those who come to God must believe that he exists.
But the point is that no one will believe apart from the word of God. Reading the word of God is always, always inherently a good thing regardless of the response and the outcome it produces in a person's heart because in and through the word of God the Holy Spirit is at work. Not once in a while, not depending on who is reading it, but always! Your error is confusing outcomes or responses with the reading. To follow your logic, you would tell the sower in the parable to stop sowing unless he knows he is scattering in the good soil to begin with!
To even suggest that a person should not read the word of God unless certain conditions are in place is to deny them the very means by which God seeks to reach them.

[Grandfather]

Reading the Bible is inherently good for all the reasons I have already given you.

No, you believe that reading the Bible is inherently good for all the reasons you have given and I disagree with your position. I believe that reading the Bible is a neutral event and is not inherently anything other than reading.

Now, I am open to change, but you will have to overcome the objections.

1 - How can reading the Bible be inherently good when history shows that people have read and used the Bible to do evil? (examples of these acts has been previously acknowledged by you.)
2 - If reading the Bible is inherently good, then why does God conceal things from people. (scriptures for support have been previously given)

Again for clarification, I support the position that the Bible in and of itself is inherently good and that the reading of the Bible is dependent on the heart, motive, purpose, and intent of the reader.

Yes, Jesus said, his words are spirit and life,

but he also said you had to believe them for there to be a positive impact on your life.

The Holy Spirit creates faith through the word of God.

Indeed faith comes by hearing, but Jesus also said ... Let those that have ears hear, so apparently not everyone has ears to hear. Hence, the "inherent goodness" of Bible reading is not available to everyone.

Your reference in Hebrews 11 refers to those who have already had faith created in them by the word of God.

REALLY? So the "without faith it is impossible to please Him is only in reference to Believers? So, non-believers can please him without having faith?

and those who come to God must believe that he exists.

Agreed, so God's word cannot come to those that do not believe He exist, hence the reading of God's word would not be inherently good for them. (btw - that doesn't change the inherent goodness of His word)

But the point is that no one will believe apart from the word of God.

Ah, but there is a slight distinction here. I have seen people come to God and believe for salvation and healing and they have never READ the Bible. They heard it preached. But in either case, when a person comes to God, be it through reading or preaching, it is because they believed He exists (see above) Which reflects the attitude of the person coming, not the inherent goodness of the reading.

Reading the word of God is always, always inherently a good thing regardless of the response and the outcome it produces in a person's heart because in and through the word of God the Holy Spirit is at work. Not once in a while, not depending on who is reading it, but always!

REALLY? You've already acknowledge that this does not always occur because people resist. Also because people don't have "ears to hear" I have to look no further than an altar call - do all sinners respond? If not then God word doesn't not always work on all people. If a person "believes God" then His word always works, but to the non-believer, not so much.

Your error is confusing outcomes or responses with the reading. To follow your logic, you would tell the sower in the parable to stop sowing unless he knows he is scattering in the good soil to begin with!

Hardly, the you are assuming the sower knows the condition of the soil, which is not a fact given in this case. Also, just because someone does not have "ears to hear" today, doesn't mean they will always be in that state. If there is any confusion, it is your confusion that assumes that because the Bible is inherently good, then act of reading it becomes inherently good. Let's carry that one step further in the logical progression. According to you, the Bible is inherently good, therefore reading the Bible becomes inherently good, therefore the one doing the inherently good reading becomes inherently good. Which, of course we know is not true, but it is where your logic leads us.

To even suggest that a person should not read the word of God unless certain conditions are in place is to deny them the very means by which God seeks to reach them.

Funny thing, I have not suggested that. Please quote me where I have said that, alluded to it, hinted at it! Perhaps the problem here is that you are arguing against a point that no one is making and attributing it to me.

What I have said and supported is that the act of reading the Bible is not, in and of itself, inherently good. This does not mean that it has the potential for good, which I will expound on later. (The potential for good and being inherently good are two different animals.) And to repeat myself, I have supported this position with the fact, which you have acknowledged, that people have read the Bible with the personal agenda find support for ungodly acts.

I wish people everywhere would read the Bible and read it often, frequently and regularly. But I don't believe this because reading the Bible is inherently good, but because I believe the inherent goodness of the Bible will eventually break through. Hence reading the Bible always has the potential for good, but is not inherently good.

[Grandfather]

Also, some need to understand he does not say that Bible reading is not a good thing!!!! He says it is not INHERETENTLY (by natural character or ability) a good thing. Those are two different viewpoints

And he is mistaken, as I said. The Bible claims to be inherently valuable to read, meditate upon, and live by. Reading it certainly is a good thing by virtue of its inherent, natural character and ability.

Just to illustrate previous points. Yes, the Bible claims to be inherently good and as such is it valuable to read, meditate upon, live by, etc. And while reading it may be a good thing because of the Bible's inherent, natural character and ability, that does not make the act of reading inherently good. Yes, reading the Bible is a good thing, but not an inherently good thing. And if you fail to understand the difference, then you will be stuck in that loop for a long time.

[victoryword]

Going without Bible reading for the Christian is like going without food for the body. The body can only survive so long without food (I think 90 days before it dies). The spirit of man will certainly die without reading, studying, and meditating on the Scripture, which is God's Word.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God (Matt. 4:4)

Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. (Job 23:12)

Satan is using that blog to get Christians to starve themselves to death.