Dake Bible Discussion BoardBible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

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Ironman
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Ironman »

Grandfather wrote:
titus213 wrote:
Grandfather wrote:Just to be clear, there is a difference between having the power to always work and working all the time, are two different things. God's Word always has the power to accomplish whatever God sent it forth to do. However, as Titus has point out "It brings God's grace to a person. But it is not irresistible grace." thus by his own admission, if it can be resisted, it can be prevented from accomplishing it's purpose.

Trying to explain that someone how resists His grace is still accomplishing the purpose of the Word is simply denying the truth. For God's word to work, it must meet a willing vessel that allows it to have its way.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's purpose is never to make someone accept it. Read the quote from Dake again. Even when resisted, God's purpose has been accomplished. This again points up your fundamental error: confusing purpose and result. You have no answer for Isaiah 55. God's word never returns void. Never means never. The word of God offers grace, and enables a person to believe and receive it. Once that is done its mission has been accomplished. In your way of thinking it is only working if a person responds positively. in other words, most of the time it fails. It returns void. Totally contrary to what God says.
So, everyone gets saved... God is not willing that any should perish -- God's word never returns void and always accomplishes its purpose... so everyone gets saved. Yep...
I believe everyone can get saved if they so choose! I also believe everyone who has never heard of God or Jesus Christ can also get saved by doing and living right in the society they live according to their conscience.


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

Iron, I appreciate your comments and I am in agreement with them.

However, to return to the focal point of this thread : Which is "Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing" That statement alone is debatable, which is apparent, as there are 7 pages of postings and replies. My position is ... it all depends on the motive of the reader. However Titus has proposed something I find confusing and I believe is self-contradicting.

He said the Bible (God's Word) always accomplishes it purpose, but that it can be resisted. So I ask, if it can be resisted, then it won't accomplish its purpose and if it doesn't accomplish its purpose is can't be said to always accomplish its purpose.

Then Titus said that its purpose, in some cases was to be resisted, such as to have Pharoh harden his heart. By golly I have a hard time with that as well. While at first it seems to be a good answer, when carried forth to it's logical conclusion we arrive at the conclusion that everyone who rejects God, who resisted His grace, does so in accordance with the plan and purpose of God and His Word.

Now, you're a smart man, where does that leave us? Only at the doorstep of predestination, divine election and no free will. Think on it... IF GODS WORD ALWAYS ACCOMPLISHES IT PURPOSE and a person is sent to Hell because they resisted God's word, then sending them to hell was the purpose.

However, I believe that God's word is meant to bring light, life, truth and love or simply life and life more abundantly. It does that by bringing us a choice, chose this day whom you will serve kind of thing. We have a choice, but we don't have a choice when it comes to the consequences of that choice.

Now, back to the original proposition: "Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing." IF someone is reading the Bible for the purpose of bringing division, death and destruction. If they are reading it for the purpose of attempting to undermine its authority and weaken the faith of others, IT IS NOT AN INHERENTLY GOOD THING! Can good come of it? Maybe! But in those cases, the action of reading the Bible is not inherently good, if for no other reason than the intentions and desires were for evil! So, unless one wants to call evil good, nothing will persuade me otherwise.



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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Ironman »

Grandfather wrote:Iron, I appreciate your comments and I am in agreement with them.
"Now, back to the original proposition: "Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing." IF someone is reading the Bible for the purpose of bringing division, death and destruction. If they are reading it for the purpose of attempting to undermine its authority and weaken the faith of others, IT IS NOT AN INHERENTLY GOOD THING! Can good come of it? Maybe! But in those cases, the action of reading the Bible is not inherently good, if for no other reason than the intentions and desires were for evil! So, unless one wants to call evil good, nothing will persuade me otherwise.
Mate, That's how I started! . . . . You say, "IF someone is reading the Bible for the purpose of bringing division, death and destruction. If they are reading it for the purpose of attempting to undermine its authority and weaken the faith of others, IT IS NOT AN INHERENTLY GOOD THING!" "Can good come of it?"

Yes, I believe so. I started reading the Bible many years ago trying to disprove it. A fellow worker left a Bible in my workplace, either deliberately or not, I don't know. I told him never to do this again. He apologised and asked me why I was so cranky about this act. I told him the Bible was nothing but a load of (expletive expletive), fairy stories and (expletive), rubbish and not worth the (expletive) paper it was printed on. naturally he never did that again.

Some days later, my motives, in anger, thinking who does he think he is leaving a bible in my machine, (bible bashing expletive), and being in a strictly destructive mood, I started reading and comparing scriptures trying to prove what I had said and to disprove what he was saying. The more I read trying to disprove the Bible, the more I realised how mistaken I was, how stupid I was and the more I read the more I realised this book was truth. I apologised to this man and kept studying. That's how I started bible study, all for the wrong reasons.

You wrote;
"However, to return to the focal point of this thread : Which is "Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing" That statement alone is debatable, which is apparent, as there are 7 pages of postings and replies. My position is ... it all depends on the motive of the reader. However Titus has proposed something I find confusing and I believe is self-contradicting.

He said the Bible (God's Word) always accomplishes it purpose, but that it can be resisted. So I ask, if it can be resisted, then it won't accomplish its purpose and if it doesn't accomplish its purpose is can't be said to always accomplish its purpose."
.

It accomplished its purpose with me. I read some of it, I found Truth, here I had to make a choice, I could have rejected it.The Bible achieved God's purpose with me! I started reading with and for all the wrong reasons. and as I got deeper into the Word of God I realised how mistaken I was. Here I could have out of spite, self pride, because I was becoming a little frightened by the fact that I was such a sinner with no hope at all, and many other personal selfish reasons, rejected what I had found so far and before I got any deeper into the truth, tossed it aside, but I chose to continue, and here I am 35 years later, deeply repentant, baptised, born again and still walking with God despite all my discrepancies!

Had I rejected, resisted God's Word, it still accomplished what God said it would and does. Standing before God on judgment as a denier of Jesus Christ as my saviour which I learnt of by studying the Bible in hatred and malice and for all the wrong reasons, on this day I could in no way blame God for my eternal demise. Jesus would say, "I placed my Word before you, you threw it away, no one else, You and you alone. I would have no excuse, no argument at all when He says to me,

Matt. 7:23, And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matt. 25:41, Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Grandfather
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

Iron,

I can't deny your experience, I've heard of and know of several people that have similar ones. But it is also impossible to say those are ALWAYS the results of reading the Bible.

I know of countless victims of domestic violence where the husband used the Bible to subject the wife to abuse. I know of cults and sects that have abused the position of power by using scripture. History is full of account of people point to the Bible and the reading of scripture to justify evil. How many slave masters used scripture to justify their actions? How much power did the KKK gain by the misuse of scripture? How many Later Day Saints are marching to hell because Joesph Smith has twisted scripture and used it to justify the "Book of Mormon". Hitler used the Bible to validate the persecution of the Jews. American church/religious history is full of people that have used the Bible for personal gain. Jim Jones, David Koresh are two that quickly come to mind. And how about the fake prophets and apostles that have used scripture to validate $100 prayer lines? Or "personal servants" that preform their godly duties by "taking care of them" sexually?

I don't deny that good things can come from reading an inherently good book. Yes, even regardless of motive. But that does not prove that the act of reading the Bible is inherently good. For if it was, there would be no evil done in the name of the Bible.



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Ironman
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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Ironman »

Grandfather wrote:Iron,

I can't deny your experience, I've heard of and know of several people that have similar ones. But it is also impossible to say those are ALWAYS the results of reading the Bible.

I know of countless victims of domestic violence where the husband used the Bible to subject the wife to abuse. I know of cults and sects that have abused the position of power by using scripture. History is full of account of people point to the Bible and the reading of scripture to justify evil. How many slave masters used scripture to justify their actions? How much power did the KKK gain by the misuse of scripture? How many Later Day Saints are marching to hell because Joesph Smith has twisted scripture and used it to justify the "Book of Mormon". Hitler used the Bible to validate the persecution of the Jews. American church/religious history is full of people that have used the Bible for personal gain. Jim Jones, David Koresh are two that quickly come to mind. And how about the fake prophets and apostles that have used scripture to validate $100 prayer lines? Or "personal servants" that preform their godly duties by "taking care of them" sexually?

I don't deny that good things can come from reading an inherently good book. Yes, even regardless of motive. But that does not prove that the act of reading the Bible is inherently good. For if it was, there would be no evil done in the name of the Bible.
Mate, the things you mention are the things I sought out in the bible after hearing of them from bible sceptics and these were the things I wanted to use against my work mate to show him that I believed how stupid it was to read and believe and follow the bible.

But, the further I got into it I realised this was not so. I eventually began to read the Bible with a keen and open heart and when I eventually started to get more and more of the idea of the entire, the big picture, I either had to accept what I was reading and believe, or flatly refuse to believe what I was reading and believe what I had believed before and this was nothing more than what I was merely told by unbelievers?

I, as a free will moral agent decided to chose to believe! Its as simple as that, in my humble opinion. I'm no scholar, I never been to any seminary, I am a retired under ground and open cut coal miner. Several friends over my working life were killed, some on my very shifts. My entire working life was a hard slog, extremely hard dangerous labour to earn a living to take care of my family, sadly,which included years of mingling with demon possessed men who thought nothing of finishing their shift, then going to a brothel on the way home and they tell their wife and children they did an overtime shift, some did this every day! And they bagged me for not joining them, which I detested even before I truly believed in God? The stories I could tell about how men betray their families ever day?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

Ironman wrote:Mate, the things you mention are the things I sought out in the bible after hearing of them from bible sceptics and these were the things I wanted to use against my work mate to show him that I believed how stupid it was to read and believe and follow the bible.

But, the further I got into it I realised this was not so. I eventually began to read the Bible with a keen and open heart and when I eventually started to get more and more of the idea of the entire, the big picture, I either had to accept what I was reading and believe, or flatly refuse to believe what I was reading and believe what I had believed before and this was nothing more than what I was merely told by unbelievers?

I, as a free will moral agent decided to chose to believe! Its as simple as that, in my humble opinion. I'm no scholar, I never been to any seminary, I am a retired under ground and open cut coal miner. Several friends over my working life were killed, some on my very shifts. My entire working life was a hard slog, extremely hard dangerous labour to earn a living to take care of my family, sadly,which included years of mingling with demon possessed men who thought nothing of finishing their shift, then going to a brothel on the way home and they tell their wife and children they did an overtime shift, some did this every day! And they bagged me for not joining them, which I detested even before I truly believed in God? The stories I could tell about how men betray their families ever day?
Again, I am not denying your story. As I've said, I've heard many similar ones in my lifetime. However, your story and the ones like it do not counteract the ones from "the other side" they are still just as true and just as valid. And that is what makes the statement that "reading the Bible in not inherently good" a valid position, one with merit and substance. It does not mean that it is the only position. I fully understand why some would think that reading the Bible is inherently good, for reasons such as you have given. Yet I won't say that in all cases, for all people, regardless of motive and purpose, that simply reading the Bible is inherently good.

I will however acknowledge, like Joseph, that there are times when.... what you meant for evil, God meant for God, but those times do not negate those that read it for evil purposes and carried out those purposes (mis)using the Bible as supporting their evil.



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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Ironman »

All I can add to what I have said so far is this. I have learnt through studying the Bible that it is a complete historic revelation from God to mankind regarding His relationship with men, and His plan for men since man was created by God. Right at the beginning of my study I learnt that God created everything, God created man, God told man that if he takes of the forbidden tree that he would die.

Further along I learn that along comes the devil and tells man, don't believe God, God's a lie'r, if you eat of the forbidden tree you will not die.

So it comes down to who do we believe? Do we believe God or do we believe the devil? After much more study I chose to believe God, sadly, many believe Satan!


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Watchman2013 »

Grandfather wrote:I'm still puzzled at how many people have posted opinions about an opinion on the blog in question, yet no one has offered anything as to why his question and subsequent statement are wrong...

"Should we stop promoting personal Bible reading because it has dashed Jesus’ dream of unity? Let me qualify my answer. If we don’t promote anything else to quell the confusion of “biblical” truths, the answer is yes. Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing.
So what must we do to use the Bible correctly?"

Has personal Bible reading dashed the dream of unity? One need look no further than this forum to answer that question with a definite YES IT HAS. A quick look over the forum will show postings that draw a division between different Christian groups because they believe differently about portions of scripture. Some are simple loving disagreements where people agree to disagree, while others a hostile.

The author of the blog qualified his statement.... IF we don't promote anything else to quell the confusion. And to that position I agree, if personal Bible reading is not doing anything (directly or indirectly) to promote unity (ie quelling - to put and end to, to stop, to calm, to reduce) the confusion of "biblical truths" then the purpose of that reading is simply to support and encourage division among the body. It's one or the other. Which do you support?

God Bless You and Yours, Grandfather... Beautifully put...

God- The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit, did not desire, intend, nor create, denominations. All believers are to follow the leading of The Holy Spirit, who witnesses and testifies of what The Father and Son do... Yes, Believers must listen/read The Word of God, absorb It, and do as Christ Jesus Commands.

The Apostle Paul, in II Timothy, gave wise counsel, concerning conduct of Christians:

2 Timothy 2:11-16 (AMP)

11 The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us.
13 If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind [the people] of these facts and [solemnly] charge them in the presence of the Lord to avoid petty controversy over words, which does no good but upsets and undermines the faith of the hearers.
15 Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.
16 But avoid all empty (vain, useless, idle) talk, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness.


Likewise, Reverend Dake writes this, of that:

Notes For Verse 11
a [It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him ...] The first New Testament prophecy in 2Timothy (2:11-13). Next, 2Tim. 3:1.


Four Faithful Sayings

1. If we be dead with Him, we shall live with Him (2Tim. 2:11; Rom. 6:8; 2Cor. 5:15).

2. If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him (2Tim. 2:12; Rom. 8:17-18).

3. If we deny Him, He also will deny us (2Tim. 2:12; Mk. 8:38; Lk. 9:26).

4. If we believe not, He remains faithful: He cannot deny Himself (2Tim. 2:13).

If we deny the faith and apostatize, He is as true to His threatenings as He is to His promises. He cannot lie and act contrary to His Word or to Himself, so He is as much under obligation to curse for sin as to bless for righteousness.

Notes For Verse 14
a [charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers]


Four Commands to Timothy

1. Remind men of these facts (of 2Tim. 2:1-13).

2. Charge men not to strive about words to no profit, which only subvert the hearers (2Tim. 2:14). Mere words have often been a source of contention among Christians.

3. Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman unashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth (2Tim. 2:15).

4. Shun profane and vain babblings (2Tim. 2:16).


b [subverting] Greek: katastrophe (GSN-<G2692>), an overturning; overthrowing; catastrophe. Translated "subverting" (2Tim. 2:14) and "overthrow" (2Pet. 2:6). It means here to overthrow the faith of men and cause their backsliding (2Tim. 2:18,25-26).

Notes For Verse 15
a [approved] Greek: dokimos (GSN-<G1384>). Translated "approved" (2Tim. 2:15; Rom. 14:18; 16:10; 1Cor. 11:9; 2Cor. 10:18; 13:7) and "tried" (Jas. 1:12). The opposite of adokimos (GSN-<G96>), disapproved (castaway in 1Cor. 9:27, note).

b [workman] Greek: ergates (GSN-<G2040>). Translated "workman" (2Tim. 2:15; Mt. 10:10; Acts 19:25); "worker" (Lk. 13:27; 2Cor. 11:13; Php. 3:2); and "labourer" (Mt. 9:37-38; 20:1-2,8; Lk. 10:2,7; 1Tim. 5:18; Jas. 5:4).

c [rightly dividing the word of truth]


Rightly Dividing Truth

Greek: orthotomeo (GSN-<G3718>), set straight; handle right. Only here. It means not only to give the true meaning, but also the correct application to the various times and classes of people. See notes, Mk. 4:12; Mk. 4:20; Mk. 4:22-23. Truth must be divided dispensationally, prophetically, historically, and with regard for classes and subjects. The chief fundamental principle of interpretation is to gather from the Scriptures themselves the precise meaning the writers intended to convey. We must exercise common sense and reason, applying the same principles and grammatical rules to the Bible as we do to other books. One should take the Bible literally wherever it is at all possible. When the language cannot be taken literally, we know it is figurative. We should then get the literal truth conveyed by the figurative language.

Notes For Verse 16
a [profane] See pt. 6, Fifteen Classes the Law Was Made For.

b [vain babblings] Greek: kenophonia (GSN-<G2757>), vain talk; babbling; increasing ungodliness. Here and in 1Tim. 6:20.

Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text.

Was there anything "wrong" with what Paul taught? Some need to be very careful there, considering that Paul, under The Guidance of The Holy Spirit, wrote two thirds of the New Testament.

Yes, there were decisions within, and by, The Early Church, to decide, prayerfully, the removal of some texts from what became "the accepted Text." We won't go into extra-Biblical works here. Label me as an ultra-conservative Christian, being extremely happy with The Word of God, as revealed by The Holy Spirit, as I find it, in legitimate, as per The Precious Holy Spirit, translations, like the KJV, NKJV, Amplified, and NASB... These, to me, are not in conflict with each other, and give me, a simple man, peace...

The Word of God, The Holy Bible, is the only "book" that comes with it's Author included... Undiluted, infinitely strong, wise, knowledgeable, and perfect in every way, The Holy Spirit witnesses and testifies of ALL that The Father and The Son do... Theirs, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is THE Perfect Union... In them, there is no division, no disagreement- EVER...

So, what is the need for more, and "better" translations? People, as God Created Man, and his descendants, is unique and individual from his fellows... Not everyone understands in exactly the same way as any other Man... As God makes each snow flake an individual, and unique, creation of beauty, so to, does He create each man or woman... God, Who in His Infinite Wisdom, gave us free will, and that selfsame uniqueness, that requires us to seek Him, while He may yet be found. We are to do what Christ Jesus commanded- to proclaim all of the Gospel, to all the world... How are we to show ourselves "approved of God," lest we learn of Him?

We are required to love Him. Likewise, as we first learn of Him, we, by faith, learn to believe in Him, and that translates into trust. So, love, faith, belief, and trust are very tangible elements in our relationship with God. There is another like unto those- respect. We respect God in accepting Him for Who, and What, He Is... As His creations, His Children, by The Spirit of Adoption through Christ Jesus, His Dear, and Only Begotten Son, we were created for His Good Pleasure. To that end, it behooves us, to Him... To that end, obedience is greater than sacrifice...

How can we please Him? By living The Word of God, by His Spirit, to His, The Father's, Glory, in The Name, Power, and Authority, of Jesus Christ... Then, if we so do, we will please Him... It is in living in His Spirit and Truth, that the World sees what it needs... No labels, no artificial constructs, as in denominations or the whited sepulchers of dead men's bones, but in Christ Alone do we reside, move, and have our being...

In Christ, Alone... Ponder that, if you will... Led by The Spirit of God, to the Glory of God The Father, in the Name, Power, and Authority of Jesus Christ... It is something to make the Devil tremble in fear, to be constantly reminded, that Jesus Christ, in hanging upon The Cross of Calvary, has defeated him, for All Eternity...

Now is the time for Christians to cleave unto The Lord, forsaking all that is of Man...

This is a wonderful thread, as it has forced us to think, really think, concerning vital questions that face The Body of Christ today... What is Christianity, and what are it's most bold, basic, essentials? What is of God, and not of Man, or the Devil? How is one to further The Cause of Christ? What is important, that is not of vanity, fear, and the flesh?

So many questions, that can only be found in The Word of God, by the illumination of The Precious Holy Spirit...

Thanks, Bibleman, for offering the opportunity to vent/rant... God Bless You and Yours- all of those on DBDB...

Thank-You for your perspectives, Grandfather...

Maranatha

Carter F. Leffen, Watchman2013


"Confess with your mouth, that 'Jesus is Lord,' believing in your heart that God raised Him from the Dead, and you will be saved, for with the heart, man believes and is justified, and with his profession of faith, he is saved." Romans 10:9-10.

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Re: Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing. WHAT???

Post by Grandfather »

I'm sorry but I missed the point, or at least how it related to the idea the Bible engagement is not inherently a good thing.

I've said it a few times, but I will repeat it. There is a difference between the Bible being an inherently good book and the act of reading an inherently good book being an inherently good action.

I believe that reading the Bible is a GOOD thing, but I don't believe the act of reading the Bible is inherently good in and of itself. Again, separate the act of reading from the book being read. As history has recorded, many people have read the Bible and used what they "discovered" there to support wars, justify immoral acts, promote racism, etc. All acts that we should all agree are not GOOD nor godly. Now, if the act of reading it was inherently good, then why the evil? Simple, because the act of reading is neutral, neither good nor bad. The book itself, the Bible - remains inherently good at all times - regardless of the person doing the reading. In other words, simply because someone reads the Bible and does evil does not make the Bible evil.

The act of reading is dependant of the condition of the reader, not the subject being read. Or to present it in terms of English grammar - in the sentence "Is reading the Bible inherently a good thing" the word INHERENTLY in an adverb which describes the action of reading, not what is being read. And actions are judged by the intentions of the heart



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