Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Justaned]

Ed wrote: Again don't get tangled up in free will when you think about this. The fact the God knows something does not preclude man's ability to make a decision.

Ah but Ed the decision has already been made by foreknowledge, it seems that if the decision or actions are already decided by foreknowledge or fate or what ever according to some of your replies, does it not make the free will void?? You may say it does not, However if it is already known what I will do tomorrow then who is pulling the strings us, fate ,or God's foreknowledge? It seems to me, according to your responses my actions are already set in stone and I have no choice really. So basically are you not saying that God's foreknowledge controls us?

I don't follow your logic. The fact someone can see the future and knows what decision you will does not effect or negate your ability to make that decision.

I have so many issues with your thinking on this, Umm yes it does because it is already determined by foreknowledge. So it is not me making the decisions because it is already set in stone what I will do. I don't know why you don't see that, but it makes sense to me. I am not sure I like your views on this, not sure I like my decisions and free will to be determined beforehand, to me you make God out to be playing games with us. So God knows every thing by foreknowledge? Hmm I remember reading about a 3 year old getting sexually assaulted and murdered and thrown in a garbage a few years back, so God foreknew that and did nothing?? Let me guess everything happens for a reason right? I have heard some explain it away like maybe God saw that they would have never accepted the Lord so God allowed it, so I guess the sexual assault was added just for dramatic purposes?, morbid I know, but it is what it is. I am not saying you believe that but I have heard preachers actually say things like that. I know that's sounds a little "dark" but yeah. Any way I know a lot of people share your view about God knowing every thing we do before we do it, and like you they can't explain certain scripture that shows at times God finds out things the way we do. So I believe God, according to the bible at times does not have foreknowledge about certain things. The bible shows us this and you have not been able to successfully explained that away really, other then claiming thats not really what it means, but you can say that about anything in the bible :)

Why or how does knowing the decision you will make force you to make a certain decision? If I offer you a blue ball and a red ball and know that you will choose the red ball how does that force you into choosing the red ball? It does not.

The second issue you brought up that God knew a child would be mistreated, abused and killed and did nothing.
How is that different from God knowing what Jesus would experience long before He did? Read Psalm 22 it details the crucifixion scene exactly. If God had intervened there would not have been a ransom for our sin paid and we would still be in our sin. We can't say it was okay for God to know Jesus was going to be abused, mistreated and killed and then say God should prevent it from happening to a child. To do that would require God to remove sin from the world. If God did intervene then God would be doing the exact thing you accuse Him of being a puppet master.

Or you may say God knew a jet plane was going to crash and would kill hundreds and fault him for not stopping the accident. However to do so would be manipulation of us as you accuse Him of. Then think about abortionist they demand they must have control of their bodies and don't see a problem killing millions. We fault God of a child or plane load of people but most people see no problem with kill millions through abortion or war.

The fact that God knows the future does not mean man must lose his free will it only means God can see the choice man made before man made it.

Stop thinking about this knowing the limitations of man, think about where there are no limitations and all things are possible.

[Justaned]

To me there is no absolute freewill. God creates the creations with different degrees of freedom. We all have choices in stages of our lives, basically the choice to obey or to disobey God. God does allow us to disobey Him in this dispensation to test and train us. And similar to but much much more superior to a super super computer in a chess game. God can predict whatever moves everyone of us make in our lifetime, responds accordingly and still be sure that His eternal purposes bring fulfilled eventually.

Except God doesn't have to think of all possibilities and plan around them, God isn't constrained by time so God can see your choice long before you are even presented with the option to make a choice. God has long incorporated that choice into His plan to accomplish His will.

[Justaned]

Rocky,

God knew beforehand that Justaned would know what God did not know before God knew it, so he could explain it all to us, that's not called free will, that's called, justanedifiable forknowledge

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

[Ironman]

Rocky,

God knew beforehand that Justaned would know what God did not know before God knew it, so he could explain it all to us, that's not called free will, that's called, justanedifiable forknowledge

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

Take a chill pill Ed, Its just having a bit of fun to lighten the mood mate!

Just the same, because of your inability to refute your opponents with facts or knowledge, you resort to accusing God of lying when God says, "Now I know," meaning He did not know before! Your saying He did know, when He says He did not know! Now, what's worse, me having a joke with you, or you accusing God of lying, and worse still being the author of sin, by God knowingly creating evil child murdering sinners?

[Justaned]

Rocky,

God knew beforehand that Justaned would know what God did not know before God knew it, so he could explain it all to us, that's not called free will, that's called, justanedifiable forknowledge

"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

Take a chill pill Ed, Its just having a bit of fun to lighten the mood mate!

Just the same, because of your inability to refute your opponents with facts or knowledge, you resort to accusing God of lying when God says, "Now I know," meaning He did not know before! Your saying He did know, when He says He did not know! Now, what's worse, me having a joke with you, or you accusing God of lying, and worse still being the author of sin, by God knowingly creating evil child murdering sinners?

God knows the number of hairs on your head. God knows when a sparrow falls from the Sky. God knew Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. God could see the crucifixion of His Son in such detail that He had it recorded in Psalm 22 in detail.

But God didn't know what Abraham was going to do. Is that what you are saying? Oh yes before I forget God sees His Son in the Second coming and details the End of the this Earth but God doesn't know what one man might do in a situation God put Him in. NONSENSE Nothing is impossible with God or do you want to change that also?

[Ironman]

Justaned, you wrote;

"God knows the number of hairs on your head. God knows when a sparrow falls from the Sky. God knew Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. God could see the crucifixion of His Son in such detail that He had it recorded in Psalm 22 in detail."

.

Like I said earlier, hairs on my head do not have free will, and god knowing the number of them has nothing to do with His plan for man, and its the same when a sparrow falls, Its His plan He knows from beginning to end!

"But God didn't know what Abraham was going to do. Is that what you are saying?"

.

That's correct, that's why God tested him and when he passed the test God said; NOW I KNOW he said, now I know, because before the test Hi did not know.

"Oh yes before I forget God sees His Son in the Second coming and details the End of the this Earth but God doesn't know what one man might do in a situation God put Him in. NONSENSE"

.

God knows His Plan For Man from beginning to end, what God does not know is what each individual man will do, conform to His plan and be save, or not conform to His Plan and be lost?

"Nothing is impossible with God or do you want to change that also?"

.

Sorry, wrong again, there are several things that God cannot do!

God cannot lie, God cannot save sinners who reject Him and His Son Jesus Christ to name just two!

[Justaned]

Justaned, you wrote;

"God knows the number of hairs on your head. God knows when a sparrow falls from the Sky. God knew Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. God could see the crucifixion of His Son in such detail that He had it recorded in Psalm 22 in detail."

.

Like I said earlier, hairs on my head do not have free will, and god knowing the number of them has nothing to do with His plan for man, and its the same when a sparrow falls, Its His plan He knows from beginning to end!

"But God didn't know what Abraham was going to do. Is that what you are saying?"

.

That's correct, that's why God tested him and when he passed the test God said; NOW I KNOW


Oh yes before I forget God sees His Son in the Second coming and details the End of the this Earth but God doesn't know what one man might do in a situation God put Him in. NONSENSE Nothing is impossible with God or do you want to change that also?

Then how did God know Judas would be paid 30 pieces for betraying Jesus? How did he know people would walk around the cross and mock Jesus? How did he know they would decide to crucify Jesus? How did he know they would crucify Jesus among the thieves? God knew all about what these men would do in the situation God put them in. How did God know these things but didn't know about Abraham? Again read Psalm 22 and tell me God hadn't seen that long before He had it written. Just as He saw Revelation before He had John write it. You make God have limits and God is limitless. God is God. Praise God.

[Ironman]

Justaned, you wrote;

"God knows the number of hairs on your head. God knows when a sparrow falls from the Sky. God knew Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. God could see the crucifixion of His Son in such detail that He had it recorded in Psalm 22 in detail."

.

Like I said earlier, hairs on my head do not have free will, and god knowing the number of them has nothing to do with His plan for man, and its the same when a sparrow falls, Its His plan He knows from beginning to end!

"But God didn't know what Abraham was going to do. Is that what you are saying?"

.

That's correct, that's why God tested him and when he passed the test God said; NOW I KNOW


Oh yes before I forget God sees His Son in the Second coming and details the End of the this Earth but God doesn't know what one man might do in a situation God put Him in. NONSENSE Nothing is impossible with God or do you want to change that also?

Then how did God know Judas would be paid 30 pieces for betraying Jesus? How did he know people would walk around the cross and mock Jesus? How did he know they would decide to crucify Jesus? How did he know they would crucify Jesus among the thieves? God knew all about what these men would do in the situation God put them in. How did God know these things but didn't know about Abraham? Again read Psalm 22 and tell me God hadn't seen that long before He had it written. Just as He saw Revelation before He had John write it. You make God have limits and God is limitless. God is God. Praise God.

Try and take in the full picture of God's revelation of Himself as to what He can and cannot do, and what He chooses to know and what He does not know, if you can mate; God limits Himself according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature of by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinate and all-comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love to those that will not comform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-18).
God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can be spoken fo as infinate, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35). We speak of the Fatherhood of God, yet He has to limit His parenthood to those who will become His children according to His plan (Luke 11:9-13; Acts. 5:32; Heb. 12:5-10).
We speak of God's infinate Grace, yet He has limited it to those that will humbly recieve it (Rom. 12:3-8; Titus 2:11-13). We speak of God's infinate care, yet He can care only for those that permit Him to help them (1 Peter 5:5-0). We speak of God being immutable and unchangeable, yet He has had to change His plans, set aside His promised blessings, change prophecy that was based upon conditions, and do many things that He did not first intend to do. All this had to be done because of the failure on the part of those with whom He was dealing. There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions (Lev. 26:3-45; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; Isa. 1:15-13; 59:8-14).
We speak of God being impartial and no respecter of persons, yet He has been forced to be impartial to those that have obeyed Him. This is God's plan. All can enjoy God's plan if they so choose, and concerning this, God cannot be partial and still be just.

And so it goes with many of God's attributes and powers. He has had to LIMIT HIMSELF in His dealings with free moral agents. So in the thought of God being limited concerning His knowledge of human affairs, we must conclude that it is not so much that God cannot know beforehand all things if he chose to do so, but that He does not choose to do this because of the very nature of His plan, and because it was made in conjunction with UNPREDICTABLE FREE MORAL AGENTS. We can still believe God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, impartial, longsuffering, etc., but that He limits Himself according to His plan in dealing with beings who are capable of free action, and therefore, it cannot be known what they will do under all circumstances until they are tested. This is the only kind of a plan that God could justly make since it includes the personal relations with beings capable of free and unpredictable choices. Take Abraham. It was not until he raised his knife to kill his son that God stopped him and God then said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOWthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12). When did God say He knew? God said, "Now I know," God never said yesterday, or last year, or last week I knew, but now I know!

[bibleman]

Justaned, you wrote;

"God knows the number of hairs on your head. God knows when a sparrow falls from the Sky. God knew Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. God could see the crucifixion of His Son in such detail that He had it recorded in Psalm 22 in detail."

.

Like I said earlier, hairs on my head do not have free will, and god knowing the number of them has nothing to do with His plan for man, and its the same when a sparrow falls, Its His plan He knows from beginning to end!

"But God didn't know what Abraham was going to do. Is that what you are saying?"

.

That's correct, that's why God tested him and when he passed the test God said; NOW I KNOW


Oh yes before I forget God sees His Son in the Second coming and details the End of the this Earth but God doesn't know what one man might do in a situation God put Him in. NONSENSE Nothing is impossible with God or do you want to change that also?

Then how did God know Judas would be paid 30 pieces for betraying Jesus? How did he know people would walk around the cross and mock Jesus? How did he know they would decide to crucify Jesus? How did he know they would crucify Jesus among the thieves? God knew all about what these men would do in the situation God put them in. How did God know these things but didn't know about Abraham? Again read Psalm 22 and tell me God hadn't seen that long before He had it written. Just as He saw Revelation before He had John write it. You make God have limits and God is limitless. God is God. Praise God.

Try and take in the full picture of God's revelation of Himself as to what He can and cannot do, and what He chooses to know and what He does not know, if you can mate; God limits Himself according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature of by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinate and all-comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love to those that will not comform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-18).
God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can be spoken fo as infinate, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35). We speak of the Fatherhood of God, yet He has to limit His parenthood to those who will become His children according to His plan (Luke 11:9-13; Acts. 5:32; Heb. 12:5-10).
We speak of God's infinate Grace, yet He has limited it to those that will humbly recieve it (Rom. 12:3-8; Titus 2:11-13). We speak of God's infinate care, yet He can care only for those that permit Him to help them (1 Peter 5:5-0). We speak of God being immutable and unchangeable, yet He has had to change His plans, set aside His promised blessings, change prophecy that was based upon conditions, and do many things that He did not first intend to do. All this had to be done because of the failure on the part of those with whom He was dealing. There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions (Lev. 26:3-45; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; Isa. 1:15-13; 59:8-14).
We speak of God being impartial and no respecter of persons, yet He has been forced to be impartial to those that have obeyed Him. This is God's plan. All can enjoy God's plan if they so choose, and concerning this, God cannot be partial and still be just.

And so it goes with many of God's attributes and powers. He has had to LIMIT HIMSELF in His dealings with free moral agents. So in the thought of God being limited concerning His knowledge of human affairs, we must conclude that it is not so much that God cannot know beforehand all things if he chose to do so, but that He does not choose to do this because of the very nature of His plan, and because it was made in conjunction with UNPREDICTABLE FREE MORAL AGENTS. We can still believe God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, impartial, longsuffering, etc., but that He limits Himself according to His plan in dealing with beings who are capable of free action, and therefore, it cannot be known what they will do under all circumstances until they are tested. This is the only kind of a plan that God could justly make since it includes the personal relations with beings capable of free and unpredictable choices. Take Abraham. It was not until he raised his knife to kill his son that God stopped him and God then said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOWthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12). When did God say He knew? God said, "Now I know," God never said yesterday, or last year, or last week I knew, but now I know!

[Justaned]

Justaned, you wrote;

"God knows the number of hairs on your head. God knows when a sparrow falls from the Sky. God knew Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. God could see the crucifixion of His Son in such detail that He had it recorded in Psalm 22 in detail."

.

Like I said earlier, hairs on my head do not have free will, and god knowing the number of them has nothing to do with His plan for man, and its the same when a sparrow falls, Its His plan He knows from beginning to end!

"But God didn't know what Abraham was going to do. Is that what you are saying?"

.

That's correct, that's why God tested him and when he passed the test God said; NOW I KNOW


Oh yes before I forget God sees His Son in the Second coming and details the End of the this Earth but God doesn't know what one man might do in a situation God put Him in. NONSENSE Nothing is impossible with God or do you want to change that also?

Then how did God know Judas would be paid 30 pieces for betraying Jesus? How did he know people would walk around the cross and mock Jesus? How did he know they would decide to crucify Jesus? How did he know they would crucify Jesus among the thieves? God knew all about what these men would do in the situation God put them in. How did God know these things but didn't know about Abraham? Again read Psalm 22 and tell me God hadn't seen that long before He had it written. Just as He saw Revelation before He had John write it. You make God have limits and God is limitless. God is God. Praise God.

Try and take in the full picture of God's revelation of Himself as to what He can and cannot do, and what He chooses to know and what He does not know, if you can mate; God limits Himself according to His own revelation of Himself, along other lines, whether by nature of by choice is not always stated. For example, God's compassion and love can be considered infinate and all-comprehensive, yet He naturally has to limit the exercise of His love to those that will not comform to His plan (Ex. 20:5-6; John 3:16-18).
God has had to punish people whom He one time had compassion for. His faithfulness can be spoken fo as infinate, but He must limit it according to His plan for those who merit it (Ex. 32:7-14; 30-35). We speak of the Fatherhood of God, yet He has to limit His parenthood to those who will become His children according to His plan (Luke 11:9-13; Acts. 5:32; Heb. 12:5-10).
We speak of God's infinate Grace, yet He has limited it to those that will humbly recieve it (Rom. 12:3-8; Titus 2:11-13). We speak of God's infinate care, yet He can care only for those that permit Him to help them (1 Peter 5:5-0). We speak of God being immutable and unchangeable, yet He has had to change His plans, set aside His promised blessings, change prophecy that was based upon conditions, and do many things that He did not first intend to do. All this had to be done because of the failure on the part of those with whom He was dealing. There are many prophecies and promises in Scripture based upon people meeting certain conditions (Lev. 26:3-45; Deut. 11:13-32; 12:1-32; 28:1-62; 30:15-20; Isa. 1:15-13; 59:8-14).
We speak of God being impartial and no respecter of persons, yet He has been forced to be impartial to those that have obeyed Him. This is God's plan. All can enjoy God's plan if they so choose, and concerning this, God cannot be partial and still be just.

And so it goes with many of God's attributes and powers. He has had to LIMIT HIMSELF in His dealings with free moral agents. So in the thought of God being limited concerning His knowledge of human affairs, we must conclude that it is not so much that God cannot know beforehand all things if he chose to do so, but that He does not choose to do this because of the very nature of His plan, and because it was made in conjunction with UNPREDICTABLE FREE MORAL AGENTS. We can still believe God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, impartial, longsuffering, etc., but that He limits Himself according to His plan in dealing with beings who are capable of free action, and therefore, it cannot be known what they will do under all circumstances until they are tested. This is the only kind of a plan that God could justly make since it includes the personal relations with beings capable of free and unpredictable choices. Take Abraham. It was not until he raised his knife to kill his son that God stopped him and God then said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOWthat thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12). When did God say He knew? God said, "Now I know," God never said yesterday, or last year, or last week I knew, but now I know!

In you opening statement you say God limits Himself. Why would God that? How does knowing what a person is going to do effect that persons free will nature? Testing is needed for the person to realize what he is going to do but as for God He already knows.

Proof.

Peter said he would stand strong for Jesus. Jesus said no you Peter will deny me thrice before the cock crows. Now Jesus either had to know this or Jesus made Peter do it or Jesus is a really really really good guesser. Jesus didn't make Peter do it, that would have violated Peters free will and this was to serious of a matter to guess on. Jesus did know that Peter was going to do it. Notice the really interesting part of the story even though Jesus told Peter what was going to happen Peter still did it and didn't fully realize what he was doing until after the last time.