Dake Bible Discussion BoardWomen as "Second Class'?

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titus213
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Women as "Second Class'?

Post by titus213 »

Recently I had a woman ask me why it is that in the Bible women are always treated as second class citizens in God’s eyes. The example she used was the “Court of the Women” in the Temple complex, which separated the women from the men, and prevented any closer access to the sanctuary.

But in the theocracy of Israel, women actually had a position of equality before God which was absolutely unique among the cultures of the ancient Near East. Women held every office that existed in Hebrew society: prophetess (2 Kings 22.14; Nehemiah 6.14), judge (Judges 4.4), and even queen (2 Kings 11.3). Only the Jewish priesthood had no female members (perhaps due to the physical exertion required for all those sacrifices, some of which were “heave” offerings – Exodus 29.27).

The Bible, in addition, always treats physical intimacy between husband and wife as right and good (Genesis 1.28; 2.18; Proverbs 12.4; 19.14; Genesis 38.9-10). Marriage is thus the oldest and most important relationship in society (Genesis 2.24), and children are viewed as one of God’s greatest gifts (Genesis 4.1, 25; 25.21; Psalm 127.3). Indeed, it was through the seed of the woman that God promised the salvation of mankind (Genesis 3.15). Women were equally responsible for obedience to the Law (Deut 31.12; Neh 8.2).

Although only the men were required to attend the three annual Jewish feasts (Exodus 23.17) this seems to have been out of concern for childbirth and family responsibilities (see 1 Samuel 1.22). When a woman could attend, she had full rights of participation. So what about that restriction to a separate, lower “Court of the Women”? That was an unbiblical innovation which was introduced into a corrupted Judaism during the period between the Old and New Testaments. It became part of “Jewish tradition”, but was never taught anywhere in Scripture.



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Ironman
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by Ironman »

fatherfisher wrote:Recently I had a woman ask me why it is that in the Bible women are always treated as second class citizens in God’s eyes. The example she used was the “Court of the Women” in the Temple complex, which separated the women from the men, and prevented any closer access to the sanctuary.

But in the theocracy of Israel, women actually had a position of equality before God which was absolutely unique among the cultures of the ancient Near East. Women held every office that existed in Hebrew society: prophetess (2 Kings 22.14; Nehemiah 6.14), judge (Judges 4.4), and even queen (2 Kings 11.3). Only the Jewish priesthood had no female members (perhaps due to the physical exertion required for all those sacrifices, some of which were “heave” offerings – Exodus 29.27).

The Bible, in addition, always treats physical intimacy between husband and wife as right and good (Genesis 1.28; 2.18; Proverbs 12.4; 19.14; Genesis 38.9-10). Marriage is thus the oldest and most important relationship in society (Genesis 2.24), and children are viewed as one of God’s greatest gifts (Genesis 4.1, 25; 25.21; Psalm 127.3). Indeed, it was through the seed of the woman that God promised the salvation of mankind (Genesis 3.15). Women were equally responsible for obedience to the Law (Deut 31.12; Neh 8.2).

Although only the men were required to attend the three annual Jewish feasts (Exodus 23.17) this seems to have been out of concern for childbirth and family responsibilities (see 1 Samuel 1.22). When a woman could attend, she had full rights of participation. So what about that restriction to a separate, lower “Court of the Women”? That was an unbiblical innovation which was introduced into a corrupted Judaism during the period between the Old and New Testaments. It became part of “Jewish tradition”, but was never taught anywhere in Scripture.

"And Mordecai walked every day before the court of the women's house, to know how Esther did, and what should become of her." (Ester 2;11).

The “Court of the Women” mentioned in Ester 2:11 is Shushan, a palace in Persia, not aTemple complex?


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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Justaned
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:Recently I had a woman ask me why it is that in the Bible women are always treated as second class citizens in God’s eyes. The example she used was the “Court of the Women” in the Temple complex, which separated the women from the men, and prevented any closer access to the sanctuary.

But in the theocracy of Israel, women actually had a position of equality before God which was absolutely unique among the cultures of the ancient Near East. Women held every office that existed in Hebrew society: prophetess (2 Kings 22.14; Nehemiah 6.14), judge (Judges 4.4), and even queen (2 Kings 11.3). Only the Jewish priesthood had no female members (perhaps due to the physical exertion required for all those sacrifices, some of which were “heave” offerings – Exodus 29.27).

The Bible, in addition, always treats physical intimacy between husband and wife as right and good (Genesis 1.28; 2.18; Proverbs 12.4; 19.14; Genesis 38.9-10). Marriage is thus the oldest and most important relationship in society (Genesis 2.24), and children are viewed as one of God’s greatest gifts (Genesis 4.1, 25; 25.21; Psalm 127.3). Indeed, it was through the seed of the woman that God promised the salvation of mankind (Genesis 3.15). Women were equally responsible for obedience to the Law (Deut 31.12; Neh 8.2).

Although only the men were required to attend the three annual Jewish feasts (Exodus 23.17) this seems to have been out of concern for childbirth and family responsibilities (see 1 Samuel 1.22). When a woman could attend, she had full rights of participation. So what about that restriction to a separate, lower “Court of the Women”? That was an unbiblical innovation which was introduced into a corrupted Judaism during the period between the Old and New Testaments. It became part of “Jewish tradition”, but was never taught anywhere in Scripture.
Wow Talk about trying to be "politicially correct"



titus213
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by titus213 »

Ironman commented (or asked): The “Court of the Women” mentioned in Ester 2:11 is Shushan, a palace in Persia, not a Temple complex?

Yes, that's right. The court in Esther was in front of the "women's house", or as the NASB expresses it, "the court of the harem" which was part of the palace in Persia. What I was referring to was the Court of the Women which had been established in Herod's Temple, but never given as a biblical part of the Temple pattern by the Lord.



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Justaned
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by Justaned »

The court of Women was for women who had children and were considered unclean until they brought a sacrifice to priest. They were forbid to enter the sanctuary so a place had to be provided for them to be able to give their offering the priest. Lev 12

Women also were to be under a covering, either the covering of their father or of their husband. Genesis 3:16 (NKJV)
16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you."

The word rule as it is understood in our thinking is not what is being said. It basically means the woman should stay under a males covering. God to insure this gave specific measures to be taken should a father or husband die. The man's brother was to step in, if none then an uncle or distant male relative.

God ordered man to love his wife. As far as I know there is no similar command of a wife for a husband and I think this comes from the words spoken in Genesis 3:16 a wife would desire her husband naturally but man must be commanded to do so.

Yes women could own lands and they were not treated as second class but like all of God's creation they had a particular part to play and often vile and evil men would take advantage of that.



titus213
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by titus213 »

The Court of the Women, the Ezrat Nashim, was not just for women with children; it was set up by the apostate Judaism of the time between the testaments, and blocked ALL women from access to the Court of the Israelites, where only the men could go. When the synagogue services developed, the Ezrat Nashim became that section of the synagogue separated from the men's section by a curtain.
Such a restriction was never ordered by God. It was invented by a corrupted Judaism.



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Justaned
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:The Court of the Women, the Ezrat Nashim, was not just for women with children; it was set up by the apostate Judaism of the time between the testaments, and blocked ALL women from access to the Court of the Israelites, where only the men could go. When the synagogue services developed, the Ezrat Nashim became that section of the synagogue separated from the men's section by a curtain.
Such a restriction was never ordered by God. It was invented by a corrupted Judaism.
Much of the temple worship that occurred in the second temple was different than from the rituals in the first temple. In the First Temple the celebrations were mostly ordained of God but in the second temple various celebrations were added and in the "special celebrations" men and women were separated and women wanting to see mingled with the men. To prevent this balconies were constructed.

However I was taught the original idea was for women to have a place to come while considered unclean due to child birth. Since a male child was to be circumcised on the eight day and if done in the temple. The woman who wanted to observe this had to stay out of the sanctuary which required her to go to another point of observation. So the court of women was created.

Was the purpose of the court of women later corrupted? Probably as most anything man touches soon becomes corrupted.

But that point aside, man and women had different rolls or tasks to play in their service to God. To ignore that ignores Gen 3:16
Last edited by Justaned on Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.



titus213
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by titus213 »

The idea was for women to have a place to come while considered unclean due to child birth. Was that later corrupted?

Do you always put in your 2 cents just for the sake of disagreeing with everyone here?

There was no "idea" for women to have a place to come.
There was nothing to "later corrupt" because God never established a Court of Women to begin with. Get it? It didn't exist.

It came along under the auspices of the apostate King Herod, when his temple was established.

You bring up roles for women; I was not and am not talking about roles for women.

I was asked by the questioner, as I said, about the Court of Women and the fact that (in her opinion) this made them second class citizens in the eyes of God.

Keep your comments to yourself unless you plan to comment on the subject being discussed.



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Justaned
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:The idea was for women to have a place to come while considered unclean due to child birth. Was that later corrupted?

Do you always put in your 2 cents just for the sake of disagreeing with everyone here?

There was no "idea" for women to have a place to come.
There was nothing to "later corrupt" because God never established a Court of Women to begin with. Get it? It didn't exist.

It came along under the auspices of the apostate King Herod, when his temple was established.

You bring up roles for women; I was not and am not talking about roles for women.

I was asked by the questioner, as I said, about the Court of Women and the fact that (in her opinion) this made them second class citizens in the eyes of God.

Keep your comments to yourself unless you plan to comment on the subject being discussed.
Please see my update to my last post.
I was just trying to add some clarification to something I saw as not exactly explaining what is thought to have taken place.
Sorry if it offended you.
Perhaps if you read Lev 12 you would understand the need to a woman that was considered unclean by child birth could come and observe the circumcision of her son since it is very explicit that she was not to go into the sanctuary.
Again I'm sorry my addition offended you but I thought we all wanted to understand Biblical events.



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Ironman
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Re: Women as "Second Class'?

Post by Ironman »

fatherfisher wrote:Ironman commented (or asked): The “Court of the Women” mentioned in Ester 2:11 is Shushan, a palace in Persia, not a Temple complex?

Yes, that's right. The court in Esther was in front of the "women's house", or as the NASB expresses it, "the court of the harem" which was part of the palace in Persia. What I was referring to was the Court of the Women which had been established in Herod's Temple, but never given as a biblical part of the Temple pattern by the Lord.
Got it mate!


Galatians 4: 16, Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

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