Dake Bible Discussion BoardBELIVING JEWS FUTURE

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
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Justaned
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:How much do you really know about Cyrus Scofield ?

But . . . whether we're talking about Scofield, Darby, or Dake for that matter . . . their personal history may be interesting to read about, but it has no bearing on the validity of their teachings unless we believe in imputing guilt by association. The validity of their teachings must depend on whether or not what they taught is what the Bible teaches.
I agree however it should raise a question in the minds of critical thinking people. If you have a man that is teaching something and that man has a questionable background. Another man is that had dedicated his life to Christ in all ways has an opposing view should we not challenge the first? Should we not demand evidence from scripture? And if such evidence is missing or if it must be cut and pasted from scripture should we then blindly accept it?

Once again and look at how the whole concept came into being. A young girl of unknown backgroung has a dream that she later shares with a preacher. That preacher has a friend that is writting a study bible and he shares it with him. They both they go about the country side promoting the concept and the acceptance of the concept almost insures a sell of the Bible.

Aside from any spiritual reality one has to see the physical realities that will would be realised in this whole thing. In all probability the names of Darby and Scofield would not be nearly as well known. Notice also none of us have the name of the young woman that had the dream on the tip of our tongues.



titus213
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by titus213 »

One point Billy made when said this came from Darby and that a dream was involved. There was a dream but it was a dream from a young woman with questionable religious background.

This is part of the urban legend that keeps getting passed along as if it were the whole story.

The person who wrote about this (S.P. Tregelles) said that he "was not aware" of any definite teaching of the rapture until an "utterance" spoken in a Brethren congregation. But Tregelles wasn't converted until 1832 when he was 19 years old. And, in fact, another Brethren leader (B.W. Newton) said that in 1831 the subject was discussed at the original Brethren chapel in Plymouth, England. According to Brethren scholar F.F. Bruce the idea of the rapture was discussed even before that in England at the Albury Bible Conferences. Darby's own account was that as he was studying 2 Thess. 2 he came to the conclusion that the rapture would take place before the Day of the Lord. He also claimed that a former minister in the Church of Ireland named Tweedy assisted him in his understanding.

No dream. No mystery girl / woman. No Margaret Macdonald character. Except in the fictional story that has made the rounds for years.

But as I said previously, whatever the origin of the doctrine in English circles may have been, that is irrelevant to whether or not it is a valid teaching of the Word of God.



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Justaned
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:One point Billy made when said this came from Darby and that a dream was involved. There was a dream but it was a dream from a young woman with questionable religious background.

This is part of the urban legend that keeps getting passed along as if it were the whole story.

The person who wrote about this (S.P. Tregelles) said that he "was not aware" of any definite teaching of the rapture until an "utterance" spoken in a Brethren congregation. But Tregelles wasn't converted until 1832 when he was 19 years old. And, in fact, another Brethren leader (B.W. Newton) said that in 1831 the subject was discussed at the original Brethren chapel in Plymouth, England. According to Brethren scholar F.F. Bruce the idea of the rapture was discussed even before that in England at the Albury Bible Conferences. Darby's own account was that as he was studying 2 Thess. 2 he came to the conclusion that the rapture would take place before the Day of the Lord. He also claimed that a former minister in the Church of Ireland named Tweedy assisted him in his understanding.

No dream. No mystery girl / woman. No Margaret Macdonald character. Except in the fictional story that has made the rounds for years.

But as I said previously, whatever the origin of the doctrine in English circles may have been, that is irrelevant to whether or not it is a valid teaching of the Word of God.

Again was the story of the girl Margaret Macdonald fictional or has history been rewritten to eliminate one of the more questionable aspects of dispensationalism.

I think what actually took place was Margaret had a dream but was a post trib rapture. I'm told it was modified by removing any referrence to a time frame and adopted by the Pre Tribers.



titus213
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by titus213 »

F.F. Bruce was not a dispensationalist, and was very familiar with the facts of the matter. I would take his statements at face value.



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Justaned
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:F.F. Bruce was not a dispensationalist, and was very familiar with the facts of the matter. I would take his statements at face value.
And what exactly was his statement on how Darby and later Scofield formulated their idea?



titus213
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by titus213 »

In writing about the origin of the rapture teaching among Plymouth Brethren, he pointed out just what I have shared: that Darby claimed to have come to his views based on his own study of 2 Thessalonians with the help of a minister named Tweedy; and that probably both Darby and Irving (the other one usually mentioned in connection with the rapture doctrine in England) got to thinking about it all from the Bible conferences they attended years earlier.

According to Bruce, the name of the woman who actually gave a Spirit-inspired "utterance" (not a dream or vision) in Irving's church in 1832 was Emily Cardale. But again, Bruce says the rapture viewpoint had already been making the rounds and was taught in English churches years earlier, by various ministers including Percy Hall and G.V. Wigram.



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Justaned
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Re: BELIVING JEWS FUTURE

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:In writing about the origin of the rapture teaching among Plymouth Brethren, he pointed out just what I have shared: that Darby claimed to have come to his views based on his own study of 2 Thessalonians with the help of a minister named Tweedy; and that probably both Darby and Irving (the other one usually mentioned in connection with the rapture doctrine in England) got to thinking about it all from the Bible conferences they attended years earlier.

According to Bruce, the name of the woman who actually gave a Spirit-inspired "utterance" (not a dream or vision) in Irving's church in 1832 was Emily Cardale. But again, Bruce says the rapture viewpoint had already been making the rounds and was taught in English churches years earlier, by various ministers including Percy Hall and G.V. Wigram.
Bruce specifically says Darby was never influenced by Margaret Macdonald?
If he does I find that most interesting as many others testify that Margaret Macdonald was the influence to Darby.

And I don't disagree the concept of the Rapture was mentioned before but it was always dismissed or forgotten. It wasn't until Darby intellectualized it that Scofield and others ceased upon it.



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