Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Does everything happen for a reason?

[victoryword]

Macca
God didn't do it but he did allow it. We see this here with Joseph and again with Job. In both cases the men it happened too didn't get mad at God, instead they trusted in God and God lead them through it.

"Allow" is a copout. It's like I stood by and "allowed" my Pit Bull to rip my six month old son to shreds even though I could have killed the dog. If God "allowed" it then it would mean that He wanted it or "willed" it and it would be no different than Him doing it Himself. So this "allow" thing is merely semantcial.

God did not "allow" (as in authorize) Jospeh's brothers to do anything. IN the case of Joseph God OVERRULED the wicked actions of his brothers. He did not want them to do wickedness but when they did He overruled their actions and brought forth His plan IN SPITE OF (not "because of") their actions.

[Justaned]

Macca
God didn't do it but he did allow it. We see this here with Joseph and again with Job. In both cases the men it happened too didn't get mad at God, instead they trusted in God and God lead them through it.

"Allow" is a copout. It's like I stood by and "allowed" my Pit Bull to rip my six month old son to shreds even though I could have killed the dog. If God "allowed" it then it would mean that He wanted it or "willed" it and it would be no different than Him doing it Himself. So this "allow" thing is merely semantcial.

God did not "allow" (as in authorize) Jospeh's brothers to do anything. IN the case of Joseph God OVERRULED the wicked actions of his brothers. He did not want them to do wickedness but when they did He overruled their actions and brought forth His plan IN SPITE OF (not "because of") their actions.

If God overrules our actions then we don't have free will but only think we do until the puppet master pulls the string.

Allow is not a copout. If it was then the Book of Job is cop out. God allowed Satan to tear into Job. In fact he told Satan exactly what he could and could not do to Job. Or do you deny that as a cop out too?

[Justaned]

Interesting discussion so far. Billy, you share my disdain for Calvinism.

Some things happen for no valid reason at all. Even God notes this in one of the most abused and misunderstood books in the Bible - the book of Job:

• Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3; NIV)

God Himself says that there was no legitimate or good reason for the attacks of Satan upon Job, contrary to the false teaching many of us receive from this book that says that God secretly manipulated Satan into testing Job for His secret divine purposes. There simply is no good reason for the rape and murder of innocent children, genocide of millions of people just for "ethnic cleansing" and all of the other horrors in our world.

Most of all, there is no divine secret reason behind any of it.

Job had a most excellent reason for happening along with the story of Joseph, to show us men of of integrity that kept their trust in God would come through the fire of testing. Also in Joseph's case he was then in the perfect position to save the Children of Israel from starving.

I would not call this no reason.

So then you would argue with God? He is the One who said that there was no good reason. That is the problem with those of you who hold to determinism: you tell God how He must operate even when He plainly says He doesn't operate the way that you claim that He does.

I'm not holding to anything much less determinism. I'm simply accepting scripture at face value.

Joseph's brothers hated Joseph or do you deny that?

Joseph's brothers wanted to do him ill. Or do you deny that?

They did to Joseph what they wanted. Or do you deny that?

Yet in the end they did exactly what was needed for Joseph to be in position to save them from starvation. Or do you deny that.

Joseph then testified saying what you meant for evil God meant for good that I would be able to save you. Or do you deny that?

Job was man that trusted God. Or do you deny that.

Satan said the only reason Job trusts you is that you give him everything. Or do you deny that?

God then said that is not so. Satan then said let me test him. Or do you deny that Satan has to ask for permission?

God said okay but don't harm Job. Or do you deny God has the power to tell Satan what he can and can not do?

Satan then killed Job's children and Job still trusted in God. Satan then said it is because he wasn't allowed to afflict Job. Or do you deny Satan was denied the power to afflict Job.

God then said okay afflict Job but do not kill him. Or do you deny that Satan was not allowed to kill Job? Satan afflicted Job and God watched just as you suggest in your story, however unlike your story there was a reason to show us how Satan answers to God, and that if even if we are afflicted if we continue to trust in God all things will work to our good. Or do you deny that?

[victoryword]

If God overrules our actions then we don't have free will but only think we do until the puppet master pulls the string.

Allow is not a copout. If it was then the Book of Job is cop out. God allowed Satan to tear into Job. In fact he told Satan exactly what he could and could not do to Job. Or do you deny that as a cop out too?

I don't think you know the definition of overrule. If you did you would not have made such a statement. Dictionary again:

• 1. to rule against or disallow the arguments of (a person): The senator was overruled by the committee chairman.
  2. to rule or decide against (a plea, argument, etc.); reject: to overrule an objection.
  3. to prevail over so as to change the purpose or action: a delay that overruled our plans.
  4. to exercise control or influence over: belief in a beneficent deity that overrules the universe.

To "Overrule" does not infringe upon anyone's free will. Furthermore, God NEVER told Satan what he could do to Job. He placed limits, but everything Satan did to Job was directly his own idea and not God's.

[Justaned]

To "Overrule" does not infringe upon anyone's free will. Furthermore, God NEVER told Satan what he could do to Job. He placed limits, but everything Satan did to Job was directly his own idea and not God's.

Your are right to overrule does not infringe upon anyone's free will. Tell that to the Jews the Hitler overruled. They wanted to leave Germany, Hitler over ruled them. They wanted to live Hitler overruled them.
They had total freedom to make all the choices they wanted but Hitler overruled every choice.

God never gave Satan ideas but he did tell him what he could do, afflict Job's possessions and family and what he couldn't do afflict Job's himself. He then did tell Satan how to afflict Job but God did say Satan could afflict Job but not kill him.

You are playing with words because the theology that says God isn't in control is theology of those that deny God's power.

[victoryword]

I'm not holding to anything much less determinism. I'm simply accepting scripture at face value.

You are a determinist through and through.

[Justaned]

I'm not holding to anything much less determinism. I'm simply accepting scripture at face value.

You are a determinist through and through.

I am one that believes scripture that says God is God.
By definition a god is one that is in control, if God isn't in control then he is not a god. But my God the God that I server is God and as such is in total control. However being God he is able to allow us to have a free will and decide if we will worship and serve God or not.

[davido]

The mystery lies in the intellect of the powers of be.
We as mortals have not the intelligence of angels.
Thus bible prophecy sees thru the years what is to be
but not necessarily causing all the fateful events.
Thus too there are the nostradamus's from the dark side
that can see into the future.
We as individuals, groups, nations are so observed
that those with the intellect of angels can determine
events.

You see something happening and you know whats likely
to happen. That doesn't meanb you had anytihiing to
do with it.

Years ago my wife and I were driving on the interstate
on a vacation far from home. A car passed us within it
were these girls and boys all dressed up, the girls in prom
dresses and I remember
the girls waving at us. It was raining heavy and I thought
to myself , thery're likely to have an acciedent. That
was obvious. The young man had his folks car perhaps and
was speeding way to fast. We stopped at perhaps
a village inn to eat and in the restroom I saw
motorcycle guy wash his face in the basin and
was amazed all the blacksoot from the highway.
We are and left, and about five miles down the
road, we saw this car overturned in the medium and\red flashing lites were there. .
Listening to the radio in our car, it was said
all were killed. The car I saw was the same car
these girls were waving from just minutes before
they died.

I did not plan their death, but it was obvious something
was going to happen.

Now the sprits that are of angelic ability to see
everywhere from the angels of God to the warlocks
of Satan can do the same but have no limitations
to space and time to obserse with super intellect
compared to mans limited intellect, whats gonna happen.

Both sides, Gods and Satans, obviously have
attacks and counterattacks which they can
figure out whats going to happen.

God does not plant evil, nor bring about harm
but we need to be wise, to pray for protecton.
Young people have not the wisdom, but have
the capabilities to go beyng their wisdom and
for angels whether they be of God or Satan
have common sense beyond our intellect and
our limited area of observation. Satan has
order of warlocsks responsibility over nations,
peoples and individuals as God has His order
of angels and The Holy SPirit with supernatural
intelligence.

God had earth with people on it not that we might not
be robots, but to come to love God. Sadly bad
things happen, but we have Jesus Christ as intercessor
if we avail of Him, avail of The Holy Spirit. God
will not force people to come to His mercy.

We are being observed more than we might think by
both God and Satan. God knows whats in our minds
and Satan can observe our behaviour and actions.
Satan cannot remember confessed sin.

If you can see within your perspective what people
do and whats likely to happen, having not the
mellenia of years observations as do the angels,
you can pretty much tell whats going to happen just
using common sense, but the angels have millenias
of experience observing events of which we can't
visualize their capabilities as compared to ours.
Basically we are not saved by our intellect but ty
faith, obedience and acceptabnce of Jesuss Christ.

Does that make sense?

[Justaned]

The mystery lies in the intellect of the powers of be.
We as mortals have not the intelligence of angels.
Thus bible prophecy sees thru the years what is to be
but not necessarily causing all the fateful events.
Thus too there are the nostradamus's from the dark side
that can see into the future.
We as individuals, groups, nations are so observed
that those with the intellect of angels can determine
events.

You see something happening and you know whats likely
to happen. That doesn't meanb you had anytihiing to
do with it.

Years ago my wife and I were driving on the interstate
on a vacation far from home. A car passed us within it
were these girls and boys all dressed up, the girls in prom
dresses and I remember
the girls waving at us. It was raining heavy and I thought
to myself , thery're likely to have an acciedent. That
was obvious. The young man had his folks car perhaps and
was speeding way to fast. We stopped at perhaps
a village inn to eat and in the restroom I saw
motorcycle guy wash his face in the basin and
was amazed all the blacksoot from the highway.
We are and left, and about five miles down the
road, we saw this car overturned in the medium and\red flashing lites were there. .
Listening to the radio in our car, it was said
all were killed. The car I saw was the same car
these girls were waving from just minutes before
they died.

I did not plan their death, but it was obvious something
was going to happen.

Now the sprits that are of angelic ability to see
everywhere from the angels of God to the warlocks
of Satan can do the same but have no limitations
to space and time to obserse with super intellect
compared to mans limited intellect, whats gonna happen.

Both sides, Gods and Satans, obviously have
attacks and counterattacks which they can
figure out whats going to happen.

God does not plant evil, nor bring about harm
but we need to be wise, to pray for protecton.
Young people have not the wisdom, but have
the capabilities to go beyng their wisdom and
for angels whether they be of God or Satan
have common sense beyond our intellect and
our limited area of observation. Satan has
order of warlocsks responsibility over nations,
peoples and individuals as God has His order
of angels and The Holy SPirit with supernatural
intelligence.

God had earth with people on it not that we might not
be robots, but to come to love God. Sadly bad
things happen, but we have Jesus Christ as intercessor
if we avail of Him, avail of The Holy Spirit. God
will not force people to come to His mercy.

We are being observed more than we might think by
both God and Satan. God knows whats in our minds
and Satan can observe our behaviour and actions.
Satan cannot remember confessed sin.

If you can see within your perspective what people
do and whats likely to happen, having not the
mellenia of years observations as do the angels,
you can pretty much tell whats going to happen just
using common sense, but the angels have millenias
of experience observing events of which we can't
visualize their capabilities as compared to ours.
Basically we are not saved by our intellect but ty
faith, obedience and acceptabnce of Jesuss Christ.

Does that make sense?

No!
If demons could see the future the demons of Mark 5 would not have asked Jesus to send them into the hogs for they would have known the hogs would run off the cliff. Demons may and I believe the do use the law of probability and try to convince us they know the future but they are no more accurate than any one else at predicting the futur.

It is God that can't remember confessed sin, Satan remembers it well and tries to convince us that because of it we are not really saved.
Angels do not watch us they watch the face of God ready to do as He directs. Now God might direct them to watch us but since God is omnipresent God is fully aware of what we are doing.

Yes there is a predictable outcome however it is never 100% but yet God's prophecy is always 100%. God does not give prophecy using a probability that it may happen God foretells of what He saw in the future only God is omnipresent, the beginning and the end.

But you are right in saying just because we know the future does not mean we induced it to happen. As your story goes you knew from the laws of probability what may happen but you did nothing to effect the fact that it did. Likewise God being omnipresent sees the future and knows what is going to happen but that in no way means God did anything to effect it.

[branham1965]

what is a determinist???
thats a cool word.

I'm not holding to anything much less determinism. I'm simply accepting scripture at face value.

You are a determinist through and through.