Dake Bible Discussion BoardDID Judas love Jesus???

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branham1965
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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

Post by branham1965 »

God can see all things IF HE CHOOSES TO DO SO.
REVEREND DAKE IS RIGHT.
NOT CALVIN THE DEVIL.
victoryword wrote:Agree with you to a certain extent Ed, but do you believe that John 6 is saying that Jesus knew from eternity past that Judas would betray Him, that God had this foreknowledge of Judas' actions before he was even born, or do you believe that the passage is saying that because Judas, at the time Jesus is talking, had already made up his mind to betray Jesus that this is why Jesus knew who would betray Him?

I know what I believe but I am interested in your thoughts and why you may believe what you do.



victoryword
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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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Justaned wrote: It says from the beginning. What is the beginning? The beginning of time? The beginning of Jesus' ministry here on earth? Or the beginning of when Jesus picked the apostles. Evidence definitely tells us Jesus knew Judas would betray him at the time he picked Judas. However I think the beginning here is the beginning of time. Since God transcends time he saw Judas betrayal before Judas was born.
I believe that this was something that God discovered in Judas at the time he decided in his heart to betray Jesus and not from eternity past. Here are two of several English translations that I have that makes this point:
  • Complete Apostle's Bible CAB(i)70 He answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He was speaking about Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for he was intending to betray Him, though he was one of the twelve.

    J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)70 Jesus replied, “Did I not choose you twelve—and one of you has the devil in his heart?” 71 He was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, one of the twelve, who was planning to betray him.
It seems that at the time of Jesus speaking this, Judas was already laying out the plan to betray Jesus. That is when God knew it and not from the distant past before Judas was ever born.



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Justaned
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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote: It says from the beginning. What is the beginning? The beginning of time? The beginning of Jesus' ministry here on earth? Or the beginning of when Jesus picked the apostles. Evidence definitely tells us Jesus knew Judas would betray him at the time he picked Judas. However I think the beginning here is the beginning of time. Since God transcends time he saw Judas betrayal before Judas was born.
I believe that this was something that God discovered in Judas at the time he decided in his heart to betray Jesus and not from eternity past. Here are two of several English translations that I have that makes this point:
  • Complete Apostle's Bible CAB(i)70 He answered them, "Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?" 71 Now He was speaking about Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for he was intending to betray Him, though he was one of the twelve.

    J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)70 Jesus replied, “Did I not choose you twelve—and one of you has the devil in his heart?” 71 He was speaking of Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, one of the twelve, who was planning to betray him.
It seems that at the time of Jesus speaking this, Judas was already laying out the plan to betray Jesus. That is when God knew it and not from the distant past before Judas was ever born.
First of all God knew before time that Jesus would be betrayed, God knew he would be crucified, God knew Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, God knew Jesus would be horribly disfigured before being put on the cross. These are all prophecies of the Old Testament. Psalm 22 describes the crucifixion in detail even to the last the words Jesus would speak. God was able to give these prophecies because God transcends time and was able to see all of this long before it actually happened. That is the only way God could be that accurate unless you want to subscribe to Calvin’s idea that God is a puppet master.

If we read John 6:64 Jesus clearly says he know who will believe and who won’t, just as he knew one of the 12 would betray Him. John 6 is very early in Jesus’ ministry many place it as occurring after the Sermon on mount or where Jesus gave the Beatitudes. So if Judas was thinking of betraying Jesus he did so from the start. Not very likely.

For one reason or another most of you seem to be unable to accept God’s omnipresence, a presence that transcends time. God is not bound by time, a god by definition can never be bound by his creations and our God created time. Can’t you see that?

How do you think the prophecies of the scripture are 100% accurate. Because God is a good guesser? Or perhaps just lucky? Or maybe a fortune teller? Or as I said before a Calvinist that made people act and do to make His prophecies come to pass. How do you think God was able to tell Abraham that his people would be in captivity for 400 years. Or Jeremiah that his people would be captive for 70 years? How do you think God was able to say Jesus would be born in Bethlehem, or that he would have to flee to Egypt? How do you think it just happened that Joseph was second in command in Egypt just when Israel needed safe haven?



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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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Justaned wrote:How do you think the prophecies of the scripture are 100% accurate. Because God is a good guesser? Or perhaps just lucky? Or maybe a fortune teller? Or as I said before a Calvinist that made people act and do to make His prophecies come to pass. How do you think God was able to tell Abraham that his people would be in captivity for 400 years. Or Jeremiah that his people would be captive for 70 years? How do you think God was able to say Jesus would be born in Bethlehem, or that he would have to flee to Egypt? How do you think it just happened that Joseph was second in command in Egypt just when Israel needed safe haven?
I believe that the majority of Christians have the wrong idea about what prophecy actually is and how it work. That, however, is a topic for another discussion. I will simply focus today on Judas and vindicate my Father from the charge of either predestining an evil act or knowing before He ever created man that a child would be born with no other choice in his or her future but to commit a horrendous act that would damn them throughout eternity. Let's look at one of the "prophecies" concerning Judas:

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; (Matt. 27:9)

A number of scholars explain the phrase "It was fulfilled". Here are two of the most well known (emphasis are mine):
  • Then was fulfilled. We have here a different form of statement from the familiar " that it might be fulfilled." A similar construction appears in 27 : 9 in connection with the death of Judas Iscariot. In both instances it is a quotation from Jeremiah. There seems to be an apparent shrinking from saying that either event was a part of the purpose of God. All that the present language need mean is that what was mentioned by the prophet Jeremiah has come true again in the case of Bethlehem. The author does not attribute any essential Messianic idea to Jeremiah's words. The quotation is apparently made from memory from the LXX (Jer. 38 : 15, LXX ; 31:15 Hebrew).
    Robertson, A. T. Commentary on the Gospel According to Matthew (New York: The MacMillian Company, 1911), p. 68

    In this use of the word fulfilled, it means, not that the passage was at first intended to apply to this particular thing, but that the words aptly or appropriately express the thing spoken of, and may be applied to it. We may say of this, as was said of another thing, and thus the words express both, or are fulfilled. The writers of the New Testament seem occasionally to have used the word in this sense. (p. 30)
    Barnes, Albert Note Explanatory and Practical on the Gospels (London: Benjamin L. Green, 1851)
Understanding Hebrew idioms would have kept us from embracing platonic ideas about prophecy and God's foreknowledge of these events.



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Justaned
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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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victoryword wrote:I believe that the majority of Christians have the wrong idea about what prophecy actually is and how it work. That, however, is a topic for another discussion. I will simply focus today on Judas and vindicate my Father from the charge of either predestining an evil act or knowing before He ever created man that a child would be born with no other choice in his or her future but to commit a horrendous act that would damn them throughout eternity. Let's look at one of the "prophecies" concerning Judas:
Can or will you explain to me how foreknowledge is predestined?

You also say you fail to believe God would allow a child to be born without a choice. He allows us all to be born knowing full well we will all sin and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. In that we have no choice.

However God does offer us the choice to accept salvation through Jesus.
However God also know who will and who won't accept that salvation.
The thing is we do have a choice and the fact that God knows what choice we will make has no effect on the choice we make.

Therefore you argument that God won't do thus and such has no merit.



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Justaned
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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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victoryword wrote:Let's look at one of the "prophecies" concerning Judas:

Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; (Matt. 27:9)

A number of scholars explain the phrase "It was fulfilled". Here are two of the most well known (emphasis are mine):
  • Then was fulfilled. We have here a different form of statement from the familiar " that it might be fulfilled." A similar construction appears in 27 : 9 in connection with the death of Judas Iscariot. In both instances it is a quotation from Jeremiah. There seems to be an apparent shrinking from saying that either event was a part of the purpose of God. All that the present language need mean is that what was mentioned by the prophet Jeremiah has come true again in the case of Bethlehem. The author does not attribute any essential Messianic idea to Jeremiah's words. The quotation is apparently made from memory from the LXX (Jer. 38 : 15, LXX ; 31:15 Hebrew).
    Robertson, A. T. Commentary on the Gospel According to Matthew (New York: The MacMillian Company, 1911), p. 68

    In this use of the word fulfilled, it means, not that the passage was at first intended to apply to this particular thing, but that the words aptly or appropriately express the thing spoken of, and may be applied to it. We may say of this, as was said of another thing, and thus the words express both, or are fulfilled. The writers of the New Testament seem occasionally to have used the word in this sense. (p. 30)
    Barnes, Albert Note Explanatory and Practical on the Gospels (London: Benjamin L. Green, 1851)
Understanding Hebrew idioms would have kept us from embracing platonic ideas about prophecy and God's foreknowledge of these events.
No one most of all me has ever said Judas' fulfillment of the prohecy was fulfillment of God's purpose. I do believe God's foreknowledge of the Judas' choice to betray Christ was incorporated into God's plan though.

However based on a person's opinion of the accuracy of Barnes and Robertson one could easily limit this not as a prophecy about Judas but simply something that fits after the fact. Personally I see God as more supernatural than most and believe this was in fact prophecy of Judas and in fact a fulfillment of it.

That said okay let throw this one out, i have 44 more prophecies made about Jesus that were also fulfilled and the only way that could have happened would be
1. God made them happen - thus God is a puppet master and makes things happen the way he said they would

2. God is lucky - However God is God and luck never enters into a discription of a god.

3. God foreknew - The fact God knew what Judas would do does not even remotely suggest God engineered it. It simply means what it says. God foreknew.

We as parents often foreknow what our children will do. Does that say we made them do it? NO!
Before anyone gets lost let me add we as parents foreknow what our kids will do in certain situations because we were children once and know what they are thinking. In God's case it is because He is omnipresent. Which means he is ever present, always present, that he transcends time, time is not a barrier to God if it were then God would not be God.



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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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Justaned wrote:
victoryword wrote:I believe that the majority of Christians have the wrong idea about what prophecy actually is and how it work. That, however, is a topic for another discussion. I will simply focus today on Judas and vindicate my Father from the charge of either predestining an evil act or knowing before He ever created man that a child would be born with no other choice in his or her future but to commit a horrendous act that would damn them throughout eternity. Let's look at one of the "prophecies" concerning Judas:
Can or will you explain to me how foreknowledge is predestined?

You also say you fail to believe God would allow a child to be born without a choice. He allows us all to be born knowing full well we will all sin and spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. In that we have no choice.

However God does offer us the choice to accept salvation through Jesus.
However God also know who will and who won't accept that salvation.
The thing is we do have a choice and the fact that God knows what choice we will make has no effect on the choice we make.

Therefore you argument that God won't do thus and such has no merit.
The Calvinist idea of sovereignty allows God the ability to change what He predetermines if He wanted to because He, according to their misinterpretation of Scripture, does whatsoever He pleases. The only thing is that the Calvinist claims that because of His immutability, all that God has determined is fixed and He has no desire to change anything. The Arminian ideas about foreknowledge makes God a much more weak and powerless being because if something is going to occur in the furture it is so fixed that God cannot change it. If He does then this future event was not really foreknown because a change came about. In order for the Arminian ideas about God to be true, yet supposedly better than Calvinism's ideas, God sees a future event that disturbs Him but because He knows what will actually occur, and in order for Him to retain an exhaustive foreknowledege of what will happen, He is unable to make a change in the event even if He wants to.

This is why I reject both ideas.

Now to simply make a statement that God knows who would choose salvation and then say that based on this statement that my argument has no merit would be fine if you had something more authoritative to back this other than your own ideology. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, and 32:35 backs me up very well. Also in Jer. 3:6-7, God thought that Israel would make a certain choice but they actually made a quite different choice than the one that He thought that they would make. I have Scripture on my side. My argument only has no merit if Scripture has no merit.



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Justaned
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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

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victoryword wrote:Now to simply make a statement that God knows who would choose salvation and then say that based on this statement that my argument has no merit would be fine if you had something more authoritative to back this other than your own ideology. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, and 32:35 backs me up very well. Also in Jer. 3:6-7, God thought that Israel would make a certain choice but they actually made a quite different choice than the one that He thought that they would make. I have Scripture on my side. My argument only has no merit if Scripture has no merit.
If I understand you, you are basing your position on figures of speech and ignoring the omnipresence of God and God's proclamation that nothing is impossible with God.
To what do you contribute God's 100% accuracy with prophecy? Luck? Carma? or puppet mastery?

You say you have scripture on you side. Yet you call God, God but fail to believe he is a god. A god by definition controls his creation. If God is God then by definition God controls time since time is a creation of God.

Your argument is the human inability to accept God can do something man can not fully imagine. God transcends time and that blows our mind. We can't imagine that right now God in heaven is viewing the creation of the this earth and crucifixion of His son and resurrection and the final destruction of the earth by fire right now at this very moment. God sees the beginning and the end because He is the beginning and the end.



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Re: DID Judas love Jesus???

Post by victoryword »

Ed, I see a couple of strawman attacks and platonic philosophical platitudes in your post but no Biblical rebuttal of the Scriptural evidence that I have presented to make my case and refute yours.

Why not just admit that you are wrong. God gives grace to the humble. That's in the Bible too. :mrgreen:



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