Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ When Christians Die of Cancer

[davido]

Every evalgilist, preacher, has answered this question:

I listen to Joel Oelstein the most recent, and over the years countless
times evangilists, preachers say "They do not know" We cannot rely
on our on human mind to answer these questions.

When Moses died,God gave the people 30 days to lament
and then he said 'move on'.

I always think of one of my favorite verses in the midst of
Isaiah, "My thought are not your toughts and may ways
are not your thoughts, and my ways are higher than yours"
Thats from memory, but look it up and thats what God said.

I think to God's answer to Job is the answer are Gad sat at the
gates of death and told Job, paraphrasing again in my recollection:
Who do you think you are. Who created the heavens....."
and God continues on his illustration quite lengthly.

Next I think of Mark Twain, a man whom had the same sentiments
we do. "You cannot save a man thats meant to drown and you
cannot drown a man thats meant to live"

I'm a VietNam veteran, God saved my life several times
and then the guys in the basic training batillion I'm
sure many of them never came back home.
Like many, I attribute my mothers prayers, and you hear
many people say it was their mothers prayers, perhaps
to their fathers prayers that somehow saved their mortal
life.

I too remember a priest, attending with my wife at a catholic
church, whom I admired and he talked about a fellow priest
that had been healed, but later died. The point was 'we all
die at some time.

I'm sure we would all like to heal, to raise from the dead,
but as I think, there were a few times when Gods voice
opened my mouth and spoke (Thats in Isaiah "open my mouth
Oh Lord and spreak." I suppose if God were to use me to
do His works, best would be His words, not mine.

The best I know of in my own thoughts is Gods answer to Job
and Isaiah 55 in the midst, whereas His ways are not ours.

It soo has always been said "God only gives us bits and pieces"
for God cannot trust any one of us as we are of sin.

We too do not know the mind of other people as does God.
Helen Kubler Ross wrote a book 'On death and dying"
and her conclusions are quite in depth.

I am 71, I've an 8 years old daughter, a 15 year old son, a
son 19 in dental school. I also have two children a son 21,
and a duagher 23. My wife is 47. I have a lot to live for,
and pray God let me live for my wife and to support my
kids spiritually, financially, as their father. We are all
afraid of death. When I was 15 I was stricken with blood
poisoning, my face later thru surgery reconstructed,
but I prayed earnestly that God heal me during those
years, but God said nothing. Nonetheless, like Job
I loved God and always believed in God. When I was 26
God thru the Spirit talked to me. confirmed, then was
what I had believed that God knew the hairs on my head
and everything about me, what test I had been thru,
but I had dekieced in God thru even death itself.
I've been in the presence of God Homself 4 times
and numerous times I've heard the gentle voice of
The Holy Spirit. I only know that surrender, obedience
are my armour. I meditated years on forgiveness, and now
I understand how important it is to forgive, for God
cannot act as long as we have hurt, anger, hate. It is
to our disadvantage to have anger and hurt, and unforgiveness
but thats not always easy, but as we do we see miracles in due
time.
When I was able to be in a church, and a missions director
twice in two churches, God often showed me things, and
used me as Katheran Kihlman would say "I'm just an emtpy
straw." And thats what we must do is be "an emtpy straw."

We recalls David Wilkerson stating "God is in control" and
David died in an automobile acciedent a few years ago.
Oral Roberts daughter was killed in an automobile accident
and Oral claimed he had let his hedge down. But when driving
on Oral Roberts campus, turning in the drive, one feels the
presence of God at Oral Roberts university.

I am just an empty straw, praying to accomplish in my
later years what I could not enjoy as others did during
my youthful years.

A lady of 47 just died, a young beautiful lady, whom claimed
before she died of cancer, she saw her dad talk to her.
I know another young lady of 45 that now has cervical cancer
and near death, having two sons. I too know in a third world
country so many men die in their 50's and 60's that are
committed to God. We must accept God the same way
our little children trust us as parents. Then too, we can do
nothing thru intellect to supercede God and His wisdom
and knowledge as His ways are to be.

This is planet earth, a place that is an expensive stage prop
for us to decide the rest of our eternal life. I suppose God
does not fear our death, because we thru familairity know
this life and we're afraid of what we don't know, but
God knows how nice we will be in His abode. We cannot\
see into heaven. We all know this earth is likened to basic
training and is not the real thing, but we have so much
God has made available for life on this earth of which
thats all we know. We are like little children learning the
precepts of God.

God is so abundent, and yet the simple things too have
extended our lives. Penicillan has extended all our lives,
good nutrituion, good housing, good medicaine, supplements
are common sense. If we con't put oil in our car engines, it
ruins the engine. In the Old testament God had this
stick and I I recall it had a snake on it and the Israelites could
be healed and today we have Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Yet, our food may have contaminants, we have wars, plagues
that kills literallly millions of people. Are not many of them
children of God. Thus the point being, we're in a contaminated
world of pollutants and sin too. Then spiritually we must
learn to be bold, humble and meek, to forgive, to come to
the purpose of our being here. We are here to love, to cry,
and finally go home to our Father in heaven.

God's prophecy says in the last days, for the woman in pregnancy
to pray that what comes will come at a certain time, because
we find traffic in Israel in that day during the week is heavy
and to pray moreover that they can travel when its not a burden
for a pregnant mother. God cares about us.

I meet people whom are angry with God, but in the end
God is always right, becasue He is God. I met a man whom
was quite accepting of the loss of his wife and children in
an automobile accident. We asked him how it was to be
at home and walk thru their bedrooms, as they were killed
in an atuo accident. He was quite mature in his response.
This is would hard, yet we see this happen frequently.

Too, I see my wife, being in submission to me, how difficult
it must be and having exhausted all my resoures and energy
to love her, I cannot fulfill all her dreams financially.
Obedience is hard, but God rewards the obedient, the
simply faith as of a child. We go to war, and we see
our fellowman die, and yet those left to speak are alive
and to the day they die, they have tears over their
friends killed in battle.
In Ephesians, one reads the chapters, and substite our
name where it says '"you" and we are lifted up becasue
then we know whom we are in Christ Jesus.

All we can do is be obedient having exercised our faith
and remember God's words to Job. You know people
today have a candy type of God, but God is very strict
and very loving. God gave us life, and we return to
God's love in the end, overcoming Satan to go on
to be with Christ having no more worry of time or death
forever. For that God gave His only Sons life for us.
So too, I think of Job's sons and daughers when Satan was
permitted to kill them, and spare Job. I think of Jobs
wife, who scorned Job for not alientating himself from
God. I thinkthe last 2/3rd of Jobs life having 7 beautiful
daughters were pehaps another wife. Too we see Abraham
willing to sacrifice Isaac upon the alter for God and this
shows God is as He says, a jealous God, but God subsittuted
a ram.

I do not know the mind of God, I do not know His ways,
I know His ways are higher than mine, and I must believe
in God unto death. I think your question was one Mark
Train pondered, that Helen Kubler Ross as a doctor
pondered, that Derek Prince pondered, that too
of the many people that Jesus healed upon this earth
many were not healed also. We are back to Jobs
interactionswith God, when God asnwered the same
question in Job of which god answered iin great length.
God basically says "Who are you to queston Me" for
where were you shen I created the world.

I do not think we can control God and I do not think
we know the thoughts of God, and we must be as
little children knowing God is God and God is right.
My little children accept my decisions as as a little
child our faith must be. This is not heaven, but we
strive to know the teaching on healing and we do
have miracles, but things are not always as our
minds think.

Thats the best answer I have, a question we all ponder,
but in the end God is God. In the end we're only able
to be empty straws, to be used of God and to accept
that we are not empty straws, for we will never try
to control God if we be as an emtpry straw for His
servie, but pure obedience and faith in God.
Not thru our intellect, can we have faith as with a little child.
See little children, how they accept their fathers will without
question or doubt. When you behold a parent tellling a little
child, why, and see the little child accept the answer,
that is the essence we must be.

[ilsie]

Hi, Ilsie,

Interesting post.

c) Consider Jesus' own words to Peter in John 21:18,19 18 'Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
There is enormous depth here... Why would Jesus predict a state of poor and pathetic health to such a prominent apostle? God chooses what glorifies Him, how it gloroifies Him and in what circumstances He is glorified. I think there are 'secerts' that many of us miss or are not appointed to understand. God chooses what His perfect will and wisdom reveals and for the rest, we need to accept by faith that there are secret things that belong to Him only. (What mattered to Jesus was that Peter followed Him! And that should be our focus too!)

Your response:
I'm curious about what you said about Peter. I'd always thought that this referred to Peter being crucified. From what you wrote, I gather that you don't believe that. I'm interested in why. Thank you.

My response:
It has often been said that Peter was crucified and died as a martyr. That may well be true. But what should concern us is the TRUTH which is what God's Word says (for our instruction and example) - not so? In the above scripture we read that Jesus predicted 'a way in which Peter would die' and that THAT WAY would glorify God. The 'picture' seems to indicate blindness but whatever Peter's old age really unfolded, it was predicted and it was not a state of 'physical well-being', I am totally convinced that Peter's soul and spirit was totally ONE with God and that He exemplified what his beloved Jesus taught Him, including absolute FAITH. Whether we understand,'thougst and secrtets of God' or not, THAT, by default, glorifies God.

[branham1965]

the Lord told the 12 APOSTLES are you men willing to drink the cup and to be baptized with the baptism i am baptized with??? matt 20:22-23, lk 12:50,mark 10:38 He knew they would.
it was a baptism into death.martyrdom.
these 12 hold a different place than any human beings ever will.they will sit on thrones next to the Lord Jesus judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Hi, Ilsie,

Interesting post.

c) Consider Jesus' own words to Peter in John 21:18,19 18 'Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
There is enormous depth here... Why would Jesus predict a state of poor and pathetic health to such a prominent apostle? God chooses what glorifies Him, how it gloroifies Him and in what circumstances He is glorified. I think there are 'secerts' that many of us miss or are not appointed to understand. God chooses what His perfect will and wisdom reveals and for the rest, we need to accept by faith that there are secret things that belong to Him only. (What mattered to Jesus was that Peter followed Him! And that should be our focus too!)

Your response:
I'm curious about what you said about Peter. I'd always thought that this referred to Peter being crucified. From what you wrote, I gather that you don't believe that. I'm interested in why. Thank you.

My response:
It has often been said that Peter was crucified and died as a martyr. That may well be true. But what should concern us is the TRUTH which is what God's Word says (for our instruction and example) - not so? In the above scripture we read that Jesus predicted 'a way in which Peter would die' and that THAT WAY would glorify God. The 'picture' seems to indicate blindness but whatever Peter's old age really unfolded, it was predicted and it was not a state of 'physical well-being', I am totally convinced that Peter's soul and spirit was totally ONE with God and that He exemplified what his beloved Jesus taught Him, including absolute FAITH. Whether we understand,'thougst and secrtets of God' or not, THAT, by default, glorifies God.

[Bible Basics]

Hi, Ilsie,

Interesting post.

c) Consider Jesus' own words to Peter in John 21:18,19 18 'Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
There is enormous depth here... Why would Jesus predict a state of poor and pathetic health to such a prominent apostle? God chooses what glorifies Him, how it gloroifies Him and in what circumstances He is glorified. I think there are 'secerts' that many of us miss or are not appointed to understand. God chooses what His perfect will and wisdom reveals and for the rest, we need to accept by faith that there are secret things that belong to Him only. (What mattered to Jesus was that Peter followed Him! And that should be our focus too!)

Your response:
I'm curious about what you said about Peter. I'd always thought that this referred to Peter being crucified. From what you wrote, I gather that you don't believe that. I'm interested in why. Thank you.

My response:
It has often been said that Peter was crucified and died as a martyr. That may well be true. But what should concern us is the TRUTH which is what God's Word says (for our instruction and example) - not so? In the above scripture we read that Jesus predicted 'a way in which Peter would die' and that THAT WAY would glorify God. The 'picture' seems to indicate blindness but whatever Peter's old age really unfolded, it was predicted and it was not a state of 'physical well-being', I am totally convinced that Peter's soul and spirit was totally ONE with God and that He exemplified what his beloved Jesus taught Him, including absolute FAITH. Whether we understand,'thougst and secrtets of God' or not, THAT, by default, glorifies God.

Thank you for the reply, Ilsie.

[Gebo]

Davido, I read your long comment above and, with due respect, it sounds a little too fatalistic. What about fighting the good fight of faith? Resist the Devil and he will flee from you? Through faith and patience we inherit the promises of God. There is a time factor in receiving from God (patience) that most Christians ignore. Through faith and PATIENCE we inherit the promises. David was harassed by Saul for 13 years but was victorious, he never lost faith in the promises made to him.

Amen! No weapon formed against me will prosper. Thanks be to God who always causes me to triumph through Christ Jesus. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen. Faith is an action word that we sometimes must hang on to for many years before we see it manifest, e.g., Abraham fathering Isaac. Faith can be very difficult to maintain but it takes it to please our Father.

[branham1965]

interesting posts.
i think the horror of losing a loved one is ..there are no words for it.
nothing could be more awful other than LOSING GOD in ones soul.
please understand that people here believe in exercising faith believing God.they are fighting.the good fight. we believe that it is His will to heal the sick in every case.Reverend Dake pioneered this.
Centuries ago in England Bulldogs would be pitted to fight bears ,boars and bulls .what endeared this breed of dog to so many was their TENACITY.THEY NEVER EVER QUIT.sometimes the big animal was brought down by the Bulldogs!!!some died latched on to their opponent.that was the highest honor.it was called being dead game.Bulldog Faith.
thats the Faith of God we are to have.we believe the promise hold onto God .if they we go on to Glory we did our best.but when we insert the "IF IT BE THY WILL" its over.why dont we say this in salvation??one Preacher used to say have faith in God in his meetings.be reverent.have faith etc.
when we pray and do not believe its God's will to save ,heal,deliver the captives,baptize in the Holy Ghost,prosper us as His partners...any BIBLE promises then we tie God's Hands and He is unable to move for us!!!
we can and do tie God's Hands!!!!
its remarkable that we human beings can actually tie God's Hands.

One thing that I find 'strange' is that Christians can bad-mouth other Christians... No wonder James highliggted the destructive power of the tongue... So much for the 'body of Christ'...

Some thoughts to ponder regards the healing issue:
a) I wonder how many of those who express their emphatic opinions that lack of faith is the cause for lack of healing and ulimate death, have lost loved ones who did qualify... (It is pointless to add that obviously they have never been in that situation...)
b) Note: Paul - who healed so many, said these word in 2 Timothy 20 '...and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus.'
c) Consider Jesus' own words to Peter in John 21:18,19 18 'Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”
There is enormous depth here... Why would Jesus predict a state of poor and pathetic health to such a prominent apostle? God chooses what glorifies Him, how it gloroifies Him and in what circumstances He is glorified. I think there are 'secerts' that many of us miss or are not appointed to understand. God chooses what His perfect will and wisdom reveals and for the rest, we need to accept by faith that there are secret things that belong to Him only. (What mattered to Jesus was that Peter followed Him! And that should be our focus too!)
I do belive that we need to truly believe and not doubt and with the help of the Holys Spirit witin us abide and obey. But true faith goes beyond the desires of our hearts and even our deepest needs. It trusts God unconditionally acknowledging that He is sovereign...

[DeafManHealing]

I think the most important thing is to make sure you are saved now wheter you are in good health or bad health because you never know if tommorrow is the day you have to die. Of course, nobody wants to think about the topic of dying.

Could be tommorrow a man dives in front of an incoming UPS truck to save that small girl who was trying to fetch her ball from the street and not a single stratch on her but the man dies on arrival to the hospital or a young lady in the prime of her life who is ice skating and she does not realize there is a patch of ice that is thin. She falls through the icy cold water and attempts to revive her were un-successful etc.

It is not just physical illness in old age of cancer. Anybody can go at any time from the infant, teenager and young adult to someone in mid-40's to the elderly can go at anytime.

It is better to accept Jesus Christ while you still have time and continue to learn more about Jesus Christ & God from the KJV Dake Study Bible and another biblical resources.

[victoryword]

I said this in response to this article on another forum. Won't hurt for me to repeat it here:

While I never condemn anyone who is sick and even die from the sickness, neither am I going to blame God for the sickness.

Blaming God comes in more than one form, such as He did not answer the prayer. Since He promised in so many places to answer prayer with the exact thing we asked for (I am sure we will get the "Paul's thorn" in response to this. I'll wait and refute it with the usual argument), to say that He does not always answer the prayer prayed in faith is akin to making Him a liar.

When I came into this movement, Charismatics were serious about miracles and healings and not letting the devil have his way. We fought to a standstill. Some still died but we at least did not look to see what mysterious reason God had for this thing. But I saw waaaaaaay more successes than failures. Now there seems to be no distinction between Charismatics/Pentecostals with the Evangelical churches outside of their intellectual affirmation of the gifts still being for today (though they experience very little to nothing of it). Charisma magazine seems to be putting the large kitchen butcher knife into this already dying movement.

It happens in every epoch of the church. God moves, miracles take place, revival hits, people fall in love with Jesus, the movement is persecuted, then some want to make it acceptable to the rest of the church so they systematize and intellectualize its doctrines, mix it with some unbelief, movement dies, end of story. Thanks Brother Grady for helping to make history repeat itself.

[branham1965]

bless the LORD.
you are right on Preacher.unbelievers and make believers(hypocrites) criticize real believers because there are times ...we lose a dear one.or a loved one is still crippled etc.etc.
i dealt with for years in the Campbellite church.its as dead as a cemetery.no faith.they revel /relish unbelief.it helped...nevermind.
fighting the bad fight of unbelief never healed anybody!!!!if we all believed as they do we would never see results.
Preach it VW!!!!

I said this in response to this article on another forum. Won't hurt for me to repeat it here:

While I never condemn anyone who is sick and even die from the sickness, neither am I going to blame God for the sickness.

Blaming God comes in more than one form, such as He did not answer the prayer. Since He promised in so many places to answer prayer with the exact thing we asked for (I am sure we will get the "Paul's thorn" in response to this. I'll wait and refute it with the usual argument), to say that He does not always answer the prayer prayed in faith is akin to making Him a liar.

When I came into this movement, Charismatics were serious about miracles and healings and not letting the devil have his way. We fought to a standstill. Some still died but we at least did not look to see what mysterious reason God had for this thing. But I saw waaaaaaay more successes than failures. Now there seems to be no distinction between Charismatics/Pentecostals with the Evangelical churches outside of their intellectual affirmation of the gifts still being for today (though they experience very little to nothing of it). Charisma magazine seems to be putting the large kitchen butcher knife into this already dying movement.

It happens in every epoch of the church. God moves, miracles take place, revival hits, people fall in love with Jesus, the movement is persecuted, then some want to make it acceptable to the rest of the church so they systematize and intellectualize its doctrines, mix it with some unbelief, movement dies, end of story. Thanks Brother Grady for helping to make history repeat itself.

[macca]

I said this in response to this article on another forum. Won't hurt for me to repeat it here:

While I never condemn anyone who is sick and even die from the sickness, neither am I going to blame God for the sickness.

Blaming God comes in more than one form, such as He did not answer the prayer. Since He promised in so many places to answer prayer with the exact thing we asked for (I am sure we will get the "Paul's thorn" in response to this. I'll wait and refute it with the usual argument), to say that He does not always answer the prayer prayed in faith is akin to making Him a liar.

When I came into this movement, Charismatics were serious about miracles and healings and not letting the devil have his way. We fought to a standstill. Some still died but we at least did not look to see what mysterious reason God had for this thing. But I saw waaaaaaay more successes than failures. Now there seems to be no distinction between Charismatics/Pentecostals with the Evangelical churches outside of their intellectual affirmation of the gifts still being for today (though they experience very little to nothing of it). Charisma magazine seems to be putting the large kitchen butcher knife into this already dying movement.

It happens in every epoch of the church. God moves, miracles take place, revival hits, people fall in love with Jesus, the movement is persecuted, then some want to make it acceptable to the rest of the church so they systematize and intellectualize its doctrines, mix it with some unbelief, movement dies, end of story. Thanks Brother Grady for helping to make history repeat itself.

Thank God