Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ God's role in sickness - Permissive or Causative

[victoryword]

fatherfisher

I personally don't agree with the idea that God was testing Job or even using Satan to do it. No where in Scripture has God ever tested anyone by using sickness, disease, and tragedy. I have written a book titled "The Tempter: His Tactics and How to Take Him Out. IN this book I have written a chapter titled "God Tests-The Devil Tempts". You can get it by going to our bookstore:
http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/boo ... books.html

But my study of Scriptures does not come up with any single time that God has tested anyone using sickness or temptation to sin (as in Peter).

It was Satan who was after Job all of this time looking to destroy him. IN Job 1:8 God says, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?" G. Campbell Morgan says:

• “Considered” is a very strong word. It means, Hast thou been watching him? Hast thou been examining him? Hast thou been going round and round the citadel of this man’s soul, trying to find some way to break in?”

Satan was always attempting to destroy Job and God knew it when he came among the sons of God. God simply pointed this out. Satan (not God) is the initiator of the problems of life. It was Satan's suggestion that God inflict him (though God allowed Satan to do it). God is the one who desires to deliver people from captivity to sickness and poverty (Job 42:7)

[titus213]

I personally don't agree with the idea that God was testing Job or even using Satan to do it. No where in Scripture has God ever tested anyone by using sickness, disease, and tragedy. I have written a book titled "The Tempter: His Tactics and How to Take Him Out. IN this book I have written a chapter titled "God Tests-The Devil Tempts". You can get it by going to our bookstore:
http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/boo ... books.html

Thanks, but I will stick with the Scriptures and real-life experience, both of which support the fact; and with Dake's comments regarding it in his notes on Job and elsewhere. You can find his book at www.DakeBible.com :)

[branham1965]

DUET 32:39 "See now that I, I am He and there is no god besides me. it is I who put to death and give life,I have wounded and it is I who heal.and there is none who can deliver from My hand."NASB

NASB I read this today Acts 13.verse 9 "but Saul who was also known as Paul filled with the Holy Spirit fixed his gaze on him,and said you who are full of all deceit and fraud you son of the devil,will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord?and now behold the hand of the Lord is upon you and you will be blind and not see for a the sun for a time.and immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him and and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand.then the proconsul believed when he saw what had happened being amazed at the teaching of the Lord."
other verses about God's Hands in my margin are Exodus 9:3;1Sam 5:6f;Psalm 32:4;Job 19:21;Heb 10:31.

"for it is time for JUDGEMENT to begin with the household of God.and if it begins with us first what will be the outcome of those who obey not the gospel of GOD?AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? caps by NASB translators 1 Peter 4.

"BEHOLD I WILL CAST HER UPON A BED OF SICKNESS AND THOSE WHO COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER INTO GREAT TRIBULATION UNLESS THEY REPENT OF THEIR DEEDS.I WILL KILL HER CHILDREN WITH PESTILENCE" REV 2 nasb

[Justaned]

I have never seen such twisting of scripture done outside of a Christian Bookstore in my life. Usually garbage like some of this thread contains is contained in the latest best seller of Christian Living section in the Christian Books stores, where authors know to garner sales they must tickle the ear of the reader.

Why is it when talking of God, sin, sickness and disease these passages are never mentioned? Or if they are mentioned such as Job they usually contain a twist that is never found in the book itself?

Exodus 4:6 (NKJV)
6 Furthermore the LORD said to him, "Now put your hand in your bosom." And he put his hand in his bosom, and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous, like snow.

Numbers 12:10 (NKJV)
10 And when the cloud departed from above the tabernacle, suddenly Miriam became leprous, as white as snow. Then Aaron turned toward Miriam, and there she was, a leper.

1 Samuel 25:38 (NKJV)
38 Then it came about, after about ten days, that the LORD struck Nabal, and he died.

2 Samuel 3:29 (NKJV)
29 Let it rest on the head of Joab and on all his father's house; and let there never fail to be in the house of Joab one who has a discharge or is a leper, who leans on a staff or falls by the sword, or who lacks bread."

2 Samuel 12:13-14 (NKJV)
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
14 However, because by this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also who is born to you shall surely die."

2 Kings 5:27 (NKJV)
27 Therefore the leprosy of Naaman shall cling to you and your descendants forever." And he went out from his presence leprous, as white as snow.

2 Chronicles 13:20 (NKJV)
20 So Jeroboam did not recover strength again in the days of Abijah; and the LORD struck him, and he died.

2 Chronicles 26:19-20 (NKJV)
19 Then Uzziah became furious; and he had a censer in his hand to burn incense. And while he was angry with the priests, leprosy broke out on his forehead, before the priests in the house of the LORD, beside the incense altar.
20 And Azariah the chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and there, on his forehead, he was leprous; so they thrust him out of that place. Indeed he also hurried to get out, because the LORD had struck him.
John 9:1-3 (NKJV)
1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth.
2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God
should be revealed in him.

1 Corinthians 11:30 (NKJV)
30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep.

2 Corinthians 12:7-10 (NKJV)
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Galatians 4:13 (NKJV)
13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first.

Philippians 2:25-27 (NKJV)
25 Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker, and fellow soldier, but your messenger and the one who ministered to my need;
26 since he was longing for you all, and was distressed because you had heard that he was sick.
27 For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

2 Timothy 4:20 (NKJV)
20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, but Trophimus I have left in Miletus sick.

Hebrews 12:6 (NKJV)
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives."

James 5:14 (NKJV)
14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

And of course the whole book of Job.

We see God using sickness to punish, chasten, to show His Glory. God also set all the boundaries for Satan to afflict Job. We see innocent dying by sickness along with wicked.

[branham1965]

REVED WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN???

THIS BOARD DONT WORK WITHOUT YOU.

[Justaned]

God is sovereign scripture declares it so. And being sovereign God can be both permissive - allowing us to make ourselves sick. And also Causative brining sickness into our lives to chasten or teach us. There are many many examples of both all through scripture if you wish to look for them.

Again remember everyone out are going to die unless we are taken first, and our death is going to be caused by something. Yes some will simply die a peaceful and relaxed death and others will go out screaming. But we all are going to die and we die of some disease. That is fact you can deny it all you want but it remains fact just the same.

Also a servant of God will not die one second sooner or later than God ordains. When we have finished what God has set before us and our work is over then and only then does God take us home. Remember Jesus now has the keys of death and hell. No one dies until God allows it and no one goes to hell unless God allows it.

[Justaned]

REVED WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN???

THIS BOARD DONT WORK WITHOUT YOU.

Sitting watching and praying for God's mercy on what some have said.

[victoryword]

WOW!!! Is this the "Dake Bible Discussion Board" or the "I hate Dake Discussion Board??

Well, anyway, for those interested (and those who aren't you can either ignore my posts or continue on your rampage. I have responded as much as I am going to and will do no more), Robert Young's "Hints and helps to Bible Interpretation" (the book referenced by Kenneth Hagin) has this interesting gem:

• 70. Active verbs frequently express only an attempt to do the action,e.g.-Deut. 28. 68 ; Eze. 22.13 Matt. 10. 39; 17. 11 ; John 1.9, 29; 12.32; Rom. 2.4; 1 CO. 10.33; Gal. 5.4; Phil 3.15; 1 John I.10; 2.26; 5.4, 10; Rev. 12.9.
  (b) Active verbs frequently express a permission of it, e.g.-Exod. 4.21 ; 5.22; 2 Sa. 24.1; Jer. 4.10.; 20.7; Eze. 14.9; Matt. 6.13; 11.25; 23.32; Mark 5.12; John 13.27; Acts 13.29; Rom. 9.18; 11.7; 2 Th. 2.11.

On page 46, note 8 of Young's "HInts" he gives this interpretation of Job 1:21:

• Job 1. ai, the Lord hath (permitted to be) taken away.—Ps. 119. 31, put me not to shame, i.e. permit it not.—Isa. 63. 17, why hast thou made (i.e. suffered) us to err.—Jer. 4. 10, thou hast greatly deceived this people, i.e. permitted them to be deceived.—15.15, take me not away, i.e. suffer it not.—Matt. 6.13, lead us not (i.e. suffer us not to be led) into temptation,

So it seems that a lot of the stuff in the OT that was attributed to God can actually be translated as only permitted by Him rather than caused by Him.

[branham1965]

REVED WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN???

THIS BOARD DONT WORK WITHOUT YOU.

Sitting watching and praying for God's mercy on what some have said.

have i failed.

[branham1965]

forgive me Pastor if i came off as a scamboogah= a jerk a bad person.that was my man Joe Frazier's word.and i loved Smokin' Joe.im sorry. sighs...

WOW!!! Is this the "Dake Bible Discussion Board" or the "I hate Dake Discussion Board??

Well, anyway, for those interested (and those who aren't you can either ignore my posts or continue on your rampage. I have responded as much as I am going to and will do no more), Robert Young's "Hints and helps to Bible Interpretation" (the book referenced by Kenneth Hagin) has this interesting gem:

• 70. Active verbs frequently express only an attempt to do the action,e.g.-Deut. 28. 68 ; Eze. 22.13 Matt. 10. 39; 17. 11 ; John 1.9, 29; 12.32; Rom. 2.4; 1 CO. 10.33; Gal. 5.4; Phil 3.15; 1 John I.10; 2.26; 5.4, 10; Rev. 12.9.
  (b) Active verbs frequently express a permission of it, e.g.-Exod. 4.21 ; 5.22; 2 Sa. 24.1; Jer. 4.10.; 20.7; Eze. 14.9; Matt. 6.13; 11.25; 23.32; Mark 5.12; John 13.27; Acts 13.29; Rom. 9.18; 11.7; 2 Th. 2.11.

On page 46, note 8 of Young's "HInts" he gives this interpretation of Job 1:21:

• Job 1. ai, the Lord hath (permitted to be) taken away.—Ps. 119. 31, put me not to shame, i.e. permit it not.—Isa. 63. 17, why hast thou made (i.e. suffered) us to err.—Jer. 4. 10, thou hast greatly deceived this people, i.e. permitted them to be deceived.—15.15, take me not away, i.e. suffer it not.—Matt. 6.13, lead us not (i.e. suffer us not to be led) into temptation,

So it seems that a lot of the stuff in the OT that was attributed to God can actually be translated as only permitted by Him rather than caused by Him.