Dake Bible Discussion BoardGod's Sovereignty

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by victoryword »

Justaned wrote:No one was taking blind faith or blind trust. God clearly stated he would make all things work to our good, if we love him and are called to His purpose.
My contention is we try to qualify this by telling God what is our good, instead of trusting God to so as He said He would.
Whenever we are taught that God ordained a set of circumstances that are supposedly meant to work out for our good but we do not yet know what the outcome of this good is supposed to be then it is indeed blind faith or trust.

We qualify the good by what the Bible says and not by some ascetic redefinition of good. Deuteronomy 28 describes exactly to the most minute detail what a blessing (good) and a curse (not good) is from God's perspective. Therefore there is no need to tell God what is our good. HE HAS ALREADY TOLD US! In commenting further on the blessings and curses listed in Deut. 28, the Lord says:
  • See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.... I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deut. 30:15, 19)
Outside of how so many who teach this stringent view of sovereignty misinterpret Rom. 8:28, the fact that the "good" that we are to receive from God is not based on Biblical revelation but on some mysterious understanding of what may supposedly be good from God's perspective, even if everyone else sees it is not good at all. Yet, the Bible defines its terms clearly and with exactness and leaves us with no mystery as to exactly what God's will is for us and exactly what He wants us to have.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote:No one was taking blind faith or blind trust. God clearly stated he would make all things work to our good, if we love him and are called to His purpose.
My contention is we try to qualify this by telling God what is our good, instead of trusting God to so as He said He would.
Whenever we are taught that God ordained a set of circumstances that are supposedly meant to work out for our good but we do not yet know what the outcome of this good is supposed to be then it is indeed blind faith or trust.
Ah but we do know the outcome. Romans 8:29 tells us that we might be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus.
So if we repeat the whole thought it would say "God makes all things work to the good of those that love Him and are called to His purpose to conform them to the image of His Son Jesus." Romans 8:28-29 parphrased.

The problem is too many of us still think of the world and want what the world wants. God said in 1 John 2:16 it is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life and that is not from the Father but of the world. James confirms this when he says you pray but do not receive because you pray to spend it on pleasures or to feedyour lusts.

The promies of blessing and curses found in Deuteronomy are for people living under the Law. We have been freed of the Law by the death of Jesus Christ.



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by victoryword »

Justaned wrote: Ah but we do know the outcome. Romans 8:29 tells us that we might be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus.
So if we repeat the whole thought it would say "God makes all things work to the good of those that love Him and are called to His purpose to conform them to the image of His Son Jesus." Romans 8:28-29 parphrased.

The problem is too many of us still think of the world and want what the world wants. God said in 1 John 2:16 it is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life and that is not from the Father but of the world. James confirms this when he says you pray but do not receive because you pray to spend it on pleasures or to feedyour lusts.

The promies of blessing and curses found in Deuteronomy are for people living under the Law. We have been freed of the Law by the death of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps you should do a study of Romans 8:28 without the Calvinist glasses on. Keeping the passage in context with verses 26 and 27 it is primarily in reference to cooperating with the Spirit in prayer. In the original Greek "working together" is talking about SYNERGY - God working together with His people for a good outcome. I have already done a very though study on that and have it in my book, "The Willingness of God: The Key to Prayer that Gets Results". You can go to our bookstore and get it if you want:
http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/boo ... books.html

The idea portrayed through your rendering of Romans 8:28 contradicts what Paul said earlier in his epistle:
  • For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (Rom. 3:7-8)
Paul said that notion portrayed by the Calvinist misinterpretation of Romans 8:28 is slanderous.



User avatar
macca
Tarry Until Ye Be Endued With Power From On High
Posts: 738
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:37 am
Location: australia

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by macca »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote:No one was taking blind faith or blind trust. God clearly stated he would make all things work to our good, if we love him and are called to His purpose.
My contention is we try to qualify this by telling God what is our good, instead of trusting God to so as He said He would.
Whenever we are taught that God ordained a set of circumstances that are supposedly meant to work out for our good but we do not yet know what the outcome of this good is supposed to be then it is indeed blind faith or trust.

We qualify the good by what the Bible says and not by some ascetic redefinition of good. Deuteronomy 28 describes exactly to the most minute detail what a blessing (good) and a curse (not good) is from God's perspective. Therefore there is no need to tell God what is our good. HE HAS ALREADY TOLD US! In commenting further on the blessings and curses listed in Deut. 28, the Lord says:
  • See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil.... I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deut. 30:15, 19)
Outside of how so many who teach this stringent view of sovereignty misinterpret Rom. 8:28, the fact that the "good" that we are to receive from God is not based on Biblical revelation but on some mysterious understanding of what may supposedly be good from God's perspective, even if everyone else sees it is not good at all. Yet, the Bible defines its terms clearly and with exactness and leaves us with no mystery as to exactly what God's will is for us and exactly what He wants us to have.


Hallalujah.... thats what i need to hear the affirmative of the living word of God.... yipppeeeeeee


+bouncyHappy



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by victoryword »

macca wrote:
Hallalujah.... thats what i need to hear the affirmative of the living word of God.... yipppeeeeeee


+bouncyHappy
Amen! God's Word is such a positive faith-building book. However, if read through Calvinistic eyes it becomes a discouraging scary book that saps life and faith.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote: Ah but we do know the outcome. Romans 8:29 tells us that we might be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus.
So if we repeat the whole thought it would say "God makes all things work to the good of those that love Him and are called to His purpose to conform them to the image of His Son Jesus." Romans 8:28-29 parphrased.

The problem is too many of us still think of the world and want what the world wants. God said in 1 John 2:16 it is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life and that is not from the Father but of the world. James confirms this when he says you pray but do not receive because you pray to spend it on pleasures or to feedyour lusts.

The promies of blessing and curses found in Deuteronomy are for people living under the Law. We have been freed of the Law by the death of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps you should do a study of Romans 8:28 without the Calvinist glasses on. Keeping the passage in context with verses 26 and 27 it is primarily in reference to cooperating with the Spirit in prayer. In the original Greek "working together" is talking about SYNERGY - God working together with His people for a good outcome. I have already done a very though study on that and have it in my book, "The Willingness of God: The Key to Prayer that Gets Results". You can go to our bookstore and get it if you want:
http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/boo ... books.html

The idea portrayed through your rendering of Romans 8:28 contradicts what Paul said earlier in his epistle:
  • For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (Rom. 3:7-8)
Paul said that notion portrayed by the Calvinist misinterpretation of Romans 8:28 is slanderous.
Calvinism that doesn't even make sense! :crazyeyes:

How is my completing the thought which is clearly seen in verse 29 Calvinistic? If it is then the writer that put verse 29 following verse 28 had to be a Calvinist. What are you saying.

"God makes all things work to the good of those that love Him and are called to His purpose to conform them to the image of His Son Jesus." Romans 8:28-29 parphrased.

How is that Calvanistic?

How is you justify reading a New Testament verse and then append it to an Old Testament verse and see no problem in doing that? Deut and the blessing and curses was spoken to people that were living under the Law of Blessings and Curses not to Christians set free from the Law.
Last edited by Justaned on Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.



victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by victoryword »

Justaned wrote: How is my completing the thought by referring to what is clearly in verse 29 Calvinistic? And you don't see any problem with ignoring verse 29 but jumping back to Deut to cherry pick a verse that tickles the ear and plug it in?

Okay you are right the "good" that God is talking about in Romans 8:28 isn't bringing us into conformation of Christ, not it is take us back and put us under the law of blessings and curses. Oh yes and of sacrifices which I always thought Jesus did away with.
Because your insinuation is this:

1. God allows/ordains/predestines negative circumstances (sickness, tragedy, etc.)
2. These negative circumstances that God allows/ordains/predestines are good.
3. These negative circumstances that God allows/ordains/predestines are good because they supposedly conform us to Christ.

Actually Romans 8:29 says that we are "to be conformed to the image of his Son". My friend, you really must read the whole Bible. Romans 8:26-27 is right in line with Paul's statement in another letter: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Gal. 4:19) The word formed is the adjective form of what we find in Rom. 8:29.

However, your theology is not rooted in the full revelation of Scripture or practical experience. All things did not work together for people's good in the Bible nor does it happen in modern life. Jesus specifically gave illustrations where trials brought the downfall of certain people because of their refusal to build their lives on God's Word.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by Justaned »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote: How is my completing the thought by referring to what is clearly in verse 29 Calvinistic? And you don't see any problem with ignoring verse 29 but jumping back to Deut to cherry pick a verse that tickles the ear and plug it in?

Okay you are right the "good" that God is talking about in Romans 8:28 isn't bringing us into conformation of Christ, not it is take us back and put us under the law of blessings and curses. Oh yes and of sacrifices which I always thought Jesus did away with.
Because your insinuation is this:

1. God allows/ordains/predestines negative circumstances (sickness, tragedy, etc.)
2. These negative circumstances that God allows/ordains/predestines are good.
3. These negative circumstances that God allows/ordains/predestines are good because they supposedly conform us to Christ.
Read what I said not what you think I insinuated. I said absolutely nothing about reordained.
But now that you brought it up when we get sick do you think it surprises God?

victoryword wrote:Actually Romans 8:29 says that we are "to be conformed to the image of his Son". My friend, you really must read the whole Bible. Romans 8:26-27 is right in line with Paul's statement in another letter: "My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you," (Gal. 4:19) The word formed is the adjective form of what we find in Rom. 8:29.
How is what I said any different than what you just said here?
victoryword wrote:However, your theology is not rooted in the full revelation of Scripture or practical experience. All things did not work together for people's good in the Bible nor does it happen in modern life. Jesus specifically gave illustrations where trials brought the downfall of certain people because of their refusal to build their lives on God's Word.
I don't know about you but everything both good and bad has worked to my good conforming me to be more like Jesus.
When I suffered lost I was forced to realized how unimportant material things were. When I suffered sickness I learned compassion for others and how precious my health was. When I experienced riches I learned how quickly I can place my faith in Gold. When I experienced other things in life things most people would call good I learned how quickly my pride in my own abilities can overrule my reliance on God. No your are wrong both experience and scripture has assured me God loves me and makes ALL things work to my Good.

Your absolutely right Jesus did give us examples of people the experienced destruction because they did not Trust God but looked to other things to rely on.



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by bibleman »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote: Ah but we do know the outcome. Romans 8:29 tells us that we might be conformed to the image of His Son Jesus.
So if we repeat the whole thought it would say "God makes all things work to the good of those that love Him and are called to His purpose to conform them to the image of His Son Jesus." Romans 8:28-29 parphrased.

The problem is too many of us still think of the world and want what the world wants. God said in 1 John 2:16 it is the lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life and that is not from the Father but of the world. James confirms this when he says you pray but do not receive because you pray to spend it on pleasures or to feedyour lusts.

The promies of blessing and curses found in Deuteronomy are for people living under the Law. We have been freed of the Law by the death of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps you should do a study of Romans 8:28 without the Calvinist glasses on. Keeping the passage in context with verses 26 and 27 it is primarily in reference to cooperating with the Spirit in prayer. In the original Greek "working together" is talking about SYNERGY - God working together with His people for a good outcome. I have already done a very though study on that and have it in my book, "The Willingness of God: The Key to Prayer that Gets Results". You can go to our bookstore and get it if you want:
http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/boo ... books.html

The idea portrayed through your rendering of Romans 8:28 contradicts what Paul said earlier in his epistle:
  • For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (Rom. 3:7-8)
Paul said that notion portrayed by the Calvinist misinterpretation of Romans 8:28 is slanderous.
Just checked out your site!

GREAT, WONDERFUL, FAITH FILLED! LOVE Filled sermons and teachings.

I love it!

http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/sermons.html

Thanks to folks like YOU and cpbeller... the WOF message is well represented on the Dake Board.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

victoryword
Knock and It Shall Be Opened Unto You
Posts: 541
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: God's Sovereignty

Post by victoryword »

bibleman wrote: Just checked out your site!

GREAT, WONDERFUL, FAITH FILLED! LOVE Filled sermons and teachings.

I love it!

http://www.victoriouswordchurch.org/sermons.html

Thanks to folks like YOU and cpbeller... the WOF message is well represented on the Dake Board.
Thanks Bibleman. Been in the movement since 1985 and since the Biblical principles have held true all of these years, no need to quit now :mrgreen:

I will be updating the web page with a lot more outlines, audio, and powerpoint slides. Plenty of stuff but not the time I would like to do it (perhaps if I could resist a good debate that might free up some time :mrgreen:).

By the way, thanks for all that you have done in making all of the good material by Dake available to us. Just recently purchaed some copies of "Bible Truths Unmasked" to sell on our church book table.



Post Reply