Dake Bible Discussion Boardhead knowledge or hear experience??

General Discussion Forum devoted to the study of God's Word in Honor of Finis J. Dake.
Post Reply
titus213
Do Good to Them that Hate You
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by titus213 »

John 6 has nothing to do with communion (contrary to Romanist teaching, by the way).

If it did, then anyone who ate Jesus' flesh and blood would have eternal life by the mere eating of the communion elements, according to his own words, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.(John 6.54). As his comments make clear in the context, this verse was to be understood spiritually, as opposed to some of his hearers who were inclined to take them in a crassly material way when they complained: "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (v.52).

As is usually the case, the natural meaning of Jesus' words is made clear by the context: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (v.63).

When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper it was quite impossible for his disciples to have understood the meaning of "this is my body . . . this is my blood" in any other sense than a symbolic sense. He was present in body with them; they could see, hear, and touch him. How could they possibly have understood him to mean his physical body and blood were being given to them?
The fact is that, as good Jewish boys, the disciples were all familiar with the Passover ritual, when the father of the house used similar language as he lifted the plate of unleavened bread and said "This is the bread of affliction which our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt". The participants of the Passover meal knew it wasn't the SAME bread as their ancestors had eaten so many centuries before; it REPRESENTED that bread.

As they observed the passover together for the final time, Jesus' disciples would not have been confused about his meaning any more than they were confused by the Passover bread.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

scottae316 wrote:
Justaned wrote:
scottae316 wrote:Ed,

I agree with you that the symbolic/memorial view seems to be lacking in view of the whole of Scripture. I think that the Roman Catholics go to far by adding an Greek philosophical twist to it. What is your understanding of the Lutheran view?
As I understand the Lutheran perspective there are two views one called Consubstanion where the bread and wine remain bread and wine but also are the actual body and blood of Jesus. The other Sacramental union the elements unite with the actual body and blood of Jesus. As you partake you eat bread and drink wine but you also eat of flesh and drink of the blood of Jesus.

To me, both of these appear to be dances around Catholic communion with the later probably closer to what actually transpires spiritually.

My problem is Protestants, Lutherans(not saying they aren't Protestant :mrgreen: ) and Catholics all tend to focus on methodology rather than on spiritual significance. I believe communion when done with the correct spiritual understanding is the MOST powerful event in the Christians life, both physically and spiritually.

And I believe that just as 1 Cor 11:29 says that communion taken incorrectly is reason for many to be sick and to died early.

I have a friend I very much respected and viewed as a true prophet spend the better part of the day with me explaining communion. One of the things he said to me that has stuck all these years is when he asked me a question. It seemed odd at the time. He asked me what was the worst drunk I ever witnessed? I didn't know what he was talking about, so he said you have seen drunks which were the worst, the ones that got drunk on beer, or whiskey or wine? I told him the worst I saw were wino's He agreed. Now remember we are talking about communion and he made the analogy that wino's miss use wine just as many today misuse the wine of communion. He was saying in physical reality a wino is worst drunk and that anyone that misuses the wine of communion is worst in the spiritual realm.

That was over 20 years ago and I ponder it yet today.

Again I really believe why some are sick and many die before their time is because of the incorrect view of communion. I don't mean methodology but what has and is taking place in the spiritual realities. I go back to John 6 where Jesus clearly tells us what we must have to have life.
Ed, you are basically correct about the two views. The second is probably the more "orthodox" Lutheran view and Consubstantiation while often stated as the Lutheran view is not what most conservative Lutherans hold. Simply put it is the bread and wine and the body and blood as Scripture states, how is not understood by us. I also agree that the ordinance view ignores 1 Corinthians 11:29 and its warnings. I am not sure I understand what you mean by focus on methodology and spiritual significance? I agree that the Roman Catholic View does this, but as to the Lutheran and even more so the Reformed view I am not sure why you say this? Your friends analogy is interesting and I will have to think a bit on it.
Scott
What I meant when I mentioned methodology I meant many protestants are more worried that some might take a Catholic view of communion they take more time explaining this isn't the body and blood. Catholics seem to over emphasis the Protestant mistake of not recognizing the elements of the communion as the body and blood. Others caution their people not to take communion casually or as a ritual and etc. The are more concerned about method or how to serve communion than they are about what it means.

I guess this is my frustration coming out. I have discovered very few old mature Christians, people who should know can't really explain how Jesus death on the cross secured their salvation, have any know of blood covenants, can explain much about communion except how you take it. To me that says the church has failed, that Pastors and Teachers are teaching everything but is really needed to be known.

I sort of chuckle when I hear Catholics that have converted to Protestism, or Methodist that became pentecostal, or Presbyterians that have become Baptist say I was never taught the Bible in my church it was only when I came here. And then if you sit down and ask them to explain salvation and how it was secured through Christ Jesus, or ask about communion they have no idea.

Oh they might know the answers to Evangelism Explosions three questions or tell you wine is the blood and bread is the body but they don't have a connection to the blood covenant.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:John 6 has nothing to do with communion (contrary to Romanist teaching, by the way).

If it did, then anyone who ate Jesus' flesh and blood would have eternal life by the mere eating of the communion elements, according to his own words, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.(John 6.54). As his comments make clear in the context, this verse was to be understood spiritually, as opposed to some of his hearers who were inclined to take them in a crassly material way when they complained: "The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" (v.52).

As is usually the case, the natural meaning of Jesus' words is made clear by the context: "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (v.63).

When Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper it was quite impossible for his disciples to have understood the meaning of "this is my body . . . this is my blood" in any other sense than a symbolic sense. He was present in body with them; they could see, hear, and touch him. How could they possibly have understood him to mean his physical body and blood were being given to them?
The fact is that, as good Jewish boys, the disciples were all familiar with the Passover ritual, when the father of the house used similar language as he lifted the plate of unleavened bread and said "This is the bread of affliction which our ancestors ate in the land of Egypt". The participants of the Passover meal knew it wasn't the SAME bread as their ancestors had eaten so many centuries before; it REPRESENTED that bread.

As they observed the passover together for the final time, Jesus' disciples would not have been confused about his meaning any more than they were confused by the Passover bread.
Exodus 12:7-8 (NKJV)
7 And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it.
8 Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Exodus 12:13 (NKJV)
13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

John 1:29 (NKJV)
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

John 1:36 (NKJV)
36 And looking at Jesus as He walked, he said, "Behold the Lamb of God!"

1 Peter 1:18-19 (NKJV)
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
Last edited by Justaned on Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.



titus213
Do Good to Them that Hate You
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by titus213 »

"What was Jesus doing when he spoke those words in John if they didn't pertain to communion? What we Jesus saying?"

First, if Jesus was talking about communion, he sure didn't let on -- since the Lord's Supper had not yet been instituted how would the disciples or the crowd of hearers have made that connection?

But we don't have to wonder what he was saying, because again the context tells us:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (John 6.32-35)

Those who COME TO HIM and BELIEVE ON HIM shall never hunger or thirst. And he was talking to the people right then and there about coming to him and believing on him right then and there; he was not discussing something which couldn't be done until later after the Lord's Supper had been instituted.



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:"What was Jesus doing when he spoke those words in John if they didn't pertain to communion? What we Jesus saying?"

First, if Jesus was talking about communion, he sure didn't let on -- since the Lord's Supper had not yet been instituted how would the disciples or the crowd of hearers have made that connection?

But we don't have to wonder what he was saying, because again the context tells us:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (John 6.32-35)

Those who COME TO HIM and BELIEVE ON HIM shall never hunger or thirst. And he was talking to the people right then and there about coming to him and believing on him right then and there; he was not discussing something which couldn't be done until later after the Lord's Supper had been instituted.
John 6 was the rheotical question the last supper was it's answer.

Let me add and this is something most of us forget, Jesus transcended both the physical realites that limit us and the spiritual realities we know little or nothing of. Was Jesus talking the physical reality of coming up and taking a bit out of him over course not, but he was talking of partaking of Him spiritually something He examplified at the last Supper and something that most miss in communion today.

Today people that should not be sick or die early do because they took communion in an unworthy manner. Likewise many/most of us miss the true blessing that comes when communion is taken with an understanding of it full meaning.

Instead we worry about it becoming too romanized NON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!



User avatar
branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 2428
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2010 1:18 am

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by branham1965 »

REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Justaned wrote:
fatherfisher wrote:"What was Jesus doing when he spoke those words in John if they didn't pertain to communion? What we Jesus saying?"

First, if Jesus was talking about communion, he sure didn't let on -- since the Lord's Supper had not yet been instituted how would the disciples or the crowd of hearers have made that connection?

But we don't have to wonder what he was saying, because again the context tells us:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (John 6.32-35)

Those who COME TO HIM and BELIEVE ON HIM shall never hunger or thirst. And he was talking to the people right then and there about coming to him and believing on him right then and there; he was not discussing something which couldn't be done until later after the Lord's Supper had been instituted.
John 6 was the rheotical question the last supper was it's answer.

Let me add and this is something most of us forget, Jesus transcended both the physical realites that limit us and the spiritual realities we know little or nothing of. Was Jesus talking the physical reality of coming up and taking a bit out of him over course not, but he was talking of partaking of Him spiritually something He examplified at the last Supper and something that most miss in communion today.

Today people that should not be sick or die early do because they took communion in an unworthy manner. Likewise many/most of us miss the true blessing that comes when communion is taken with an understanding of it full meaning.

Instead we worry about it becoming too romanized NON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!



User avatar
bibleman
Administrator
Posts: 1825
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 1998 5:23 pm
Location: South Carolina
Contact:

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by bibleman »

branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Hi Billy,

Ed can of course speak for himself... But I think Communion is simply a memorial - nothing more and nothing less!
(24) The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 A.D. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Gospel condemns such absurdities, for the Holy Communion is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ (Lk. 22:19-20; Jn. 6:35; 1 Cor. 11:26).Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 824.


God bless
Leon Bible

http://www.ministryhelps.com
http://www.dakebible.com
http://www.dakebibleboard.com
https://www.facebook.com/groups/DakeBibleDiscussion/

The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:19 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Justaned wrote:
fatherfisher wrote:"What was Jesus doing when he spoke those words in John if they didn't pertain to communion? What we Jesus saying?"

First, if Jesus was talking about communion, he sure didn't let on -- since the Lord's Supper had not yet been instituted how would the disciples or the crowd of hearers have made that connection?

But we don't have to wonder what he was saying, because again the context tells us:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (John 6.32-35)

Those who COME TO HIM and BELIEVE ON HIM shall never hunger or thirst. And he was talking to the people right then and there about coming to him and believing on him right then and there; he was not discussing something which couldn't be done until later after the Lord's Supper had been instituted.
John 6 was the rheotical question the last supper was it's answer.

Let me add and this is something most of us forget, Jesus transcended both the physical realites that limit us and the spiritual realities we know little or nothing of. Was Jesus talking the physical reality of coming up and taking a bit out of him over course not, but he was talking of partaking of Him spiritually something He examplified at the last Supper and something that most miss in communion today.

Today people that should not be sick or die early do because they took communion in an unworthy manner. Likewise many/most of us miss the true blessing that comes when communion is taken with an understanding of it full meaning.

Instead we worry about it becoming too romanized NON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!

Billy
I see communion as a reaffirmation of every aspect of the New Covenant in which we are partakers. I believe if communion is taken properly we are blessed beyond measure.

1 Corinthians 10:14-22 (NKJV)
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

John 6:53-58 (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

From this I can't not see how a Christian can trivialize communion and not take it as a life changing event each and everytime he takes it. I know many call it a memorial as Jesus said "in rememberance of me." But it is more and Paul touched upon it in 1 Cor 11. However I think the full understanding is lost to us since I believe it was passed by tradition from the Apostles, traditions we now disregard and ignore. I think 1 Cor 11 is additional teaching to what the Apostles assumed would be common knowledge within the church since communion was taken so often. To me the answer of understanding of communion comes from the right understanding of John 6:53-58. I believe the apostles had the unrecorded question when will we partake and I believe Jesus response which is also unrecorded was soon. At the Last Supper Jesus used the same words "this is my flesh and my blood" take eat.

No one in their right mind can divorce the two events.

Yes I know to many that seems to put works in the salvation formula. And I say yes it may seem that way but I hold that if at all possible you must be baptized and you must take communion. If not you are not an obedient servant of the most high God.



titus213
Do Good to Them that Hate You
Posts: 470
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:45 pm

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by titus213 »

"To me the answer of understanding of communion comes from the right understanding of John 6:53-58. I believe the apostles had the unrecorded question when will we partake and I believe Jesus response which is also unrecorded was soon. At the Last Supper Jesus used the same words "this is my flesh and my blood" take eat."

As anyone reading the passage in John 6 should be able to recognize, Jesus was not speaking just to the apostles, but to a group of Jews in the synagogue. They would not have had any such question in mind like "when will we partake", especially since Jesus had already explained what partaking involved: coming to him and believing in him (v.35).

What Jesus says in John 6.51 and 58 is an outright lie if he was talking about communion; Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 11 that NOT all who eat the bread and drink the cup have eternal life. In fact, Paul demands that people examine themselves BEFORE partaking of communion -- why would he restrict anyone from having eternal life if he knew that's what Jesus said about communion?

Of course, if I prefer to build my doctrine on "unrecorded questions" and "unrecorded responses" the result will be pretty much whatever I want it to be, even when it's in obvious conflict with what IS recorded.



Ray

Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Ray »

Ed,

I believe we must not forget who JESUS is at the time of Creation, When
Our FATHER was Speaking things into exsistence. Through HIS WORD Creation
came to be. All things were created Through JESUS CHRIST, as HE is The WORD
Of GOD.

IT was THE WORD Of GOD That was made flesh in The MAN JESUS CHRIST.

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

{In the passage below "Let the children (of Israel) first be filled" with what ?
what was this "children's bread"? It was The WORD Of GOD WHO came down
from heaven in THE MAN JESUS THE MESSIAH.}

Mark 7:27-28
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

{It is by The WORD Of GOD that we are Truly Nurished, That we have eternal
life.}

Luke 4:1-4
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

{As JESUS during HIS ministry on earth was THE WORD Of GOD, HE said HE had come to do The Will Of HIS FATHER. He Is THE WORD and HE was sustained by
THE WORD.}
John 4:31-32
31 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.


John 6:51-53
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

{Can we have eternal life without a TRUE Understanding of THE WORD Of GOD?
Can we be TRULY fed without a measure Of THE WORD OF GOD daily ? }

I say No WAY!



Post Reply