Dake Bible Discussion Boardhead knowledge or hear experience??

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Justaned
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

fatherfisher wrote:"To me the answer of understanding of communion comes from the right understanding of John 6:53-58. I believe the apostles had the unrecorded question when will we partake and I believe Jesus response which is also unrecorded was soon. At the Last Supper Jesus used the same words "this is my flesh and my blood" take eat."

As anyone reading the passage in John 6 should be able to recognize, Jesus was not speaking just to the apostles, but to a group of Jews in the synagogue. They would not have had any such question in mind like "when will we partake", especially since Jesus had already explained what partaking involved: coming to him and believing in him (v.35).

What Jesus says in John 6.51 and 58 is an outright lie if he was talking about communion; Paul makes it clear in 1 Corinthians 11 that NOT all who eat the bread and drink the cup have eternal life. In fact, Paul demands that people examine themselves BEFORE partaking of communion -- why would he restrict anyone from having eternal life if he knew that's what Jesus said about communion?

Of course, if I prefer to build my doctrine on "unrecorded questions" and "unrecorded responses" the result will be pretty much whatever I want it to be, even when it's in obvious conflict with what IS recorded.
You make some excellent points, and brought up things I did not consider when I made my rather rash response. As to you point in about John 51-58 and 1 Cor 11 Paul made the distinction of people that partake in an unworthy manner they were to examine themselves that they weren't drinking in an unworthy manner and bringing damnation onto themselves.

I used my illustration of the unrecorded questions and answers to say those that were closest to Jesus understood there was more to this than just the surface much like most parables Jesus spoke. Verse 60 affirms the Apostles discussed this after the fact.



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branham1965
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by branham1965 »

PASTOR
i was raised Roman and Byzantine Catholic.
then i got really saved in my Charismatic Church in 1976.My late Pastor was hated for various reasons.perhaps the biggest was how many of us Catholics went over to his Church.the Diocese was very concerned about him.he openly spoke against the papacy from the pulpit.
may i ask how you celebrate it in your Assembly??thanks.
ive had it in Warren.in the COC,in the Rhema Church here...never at LFAC.
thank ye. :scrambleup:
bibleman wrote:
branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Hi Billy,

Ed can of course speak for himself... But I think Communion is simply a memorial - nothing more and nothing less!
(24) The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 A.D. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Gospel condemns such absurdities, for the Holy Communion is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ (Lk. 22:19-20; Jn. 6:35; 1 Cor. 11:26).Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 824.



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Justaned
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

Ray wrote:Ed,

I believe we must not forget who JESUS is at the time of Creation, When
Our FATHER was Speaking things into exsistence. Through HIS WORD Creation
came to be. All things were created Through JESUS CHRIST, as HE is The WORD
Of GOD.

IT was THE WORD Of GOD That was made flesh in The MAN JESUS CHRIST.

John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

{In the passage below "Let the children (of Israel) first be filled" with what ?
what was this "children's bread"? It was The WORD Of GOD WHO came down
from heaven in THE MAN JESUS THE MESSIAH.}

Mark 7:27-28
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.

{It is by The WORD Of GOD that we are Truly Nurished, That we have eternal
life.}

Luke 4:1-4
4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

{As JESUS during HIS ministry on earth was THE WORD Of GOD, HE said HE had come to do The Will Of HIS FATHER. He Is THE WORD and HE was sustained by
THE WORD.}
John 4:31-32
31 In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat.
32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.


John 6:51-53
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

{Can we have eternal life without a TRUE Understanding of THE WORD Of GOD?
Can we be TRULY fed without a measure Of THE WORD OF GOD daily ? }

I say No WAY!
I guess I really shot from the hip when I posted this post, wow!

I was not trying to invent another way of salvation and yes you are right we must have a true understanding of scripture (althought others would say that too constitute another way to salvation)

And I agree the Word (Jesus Christ) is the bread of life, Jesus used some very exact words when he spoke John 6 as he did at the last supper.

Notice in John 6 up until verse 51 Jesus talked of Bread and then as the Jews began to argure amongst themselves Jesus started to talk of eating his flesh and drinking his blood. See it wasn't until the Jews refused to listen and began to argue that Jesus added the addition of blood. And here he got very exact John 6:56 (NASB)
56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

What happened, the Jews went on arguing, the crowd that could not accept this left and all what was left were the disciples which went on talking of this as seen in verse 60.

What I find interesting is orthodox Christianity accepted the John 6 passage a duality of meaning or metaphorically talking of communion for 1500 years then magically it was considered the Catholic deception, totally ignoring the language contained therein.



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bibleman
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by bibleman »

branham1965 wrote:PASTOR
i was raised Roman and Byzantine Catholic.
then i got really saved in my Charismatic Church in 1976.My late Pastor was hated for various reasons.perhaps the biggest was how many of us Catholics went over to his Church.the Diocese was very concerned about him.he openly spoke against the papacy from the pulpit.
may i ask how you celebrate it in your Assembly??thanks.
ive had it in Warren.in the COC,in the Rhema Church here...never at LFAC.
thank ye. :scrambleup:
bibleman wrote:
branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Hi Billy,

Ed can of course speak for himself... But I think Communion is simply a memorial - nothing more and nothing less!
(24) The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 A.D. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Gospel condemns such absurdities, for the Holy Communion is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ (Lk. 22:19-20; Jn. 6:35; 1 Cor. 11:26).Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 824.
Hi Billy,

We practice communion as Jesus said to do:

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

We practice communion in memory or in memorial. The bread and the wine simply remind us of the sacrifice that Jesus made for our salvation!


God bless
Leon Bible

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branham1965
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by branham1965 »

do you believe the ELEMENTS change somehow.im not being a buzzard.i hope you know that.
this is very heated.i know Rome changed it from the Eastern Churches view.
i once fussed with my Uncle Pete on Granny's porch.he said it was the LITERAL Flesh and Blood of the Lord.i said it was not.it could not be this...
Baptism and Communion are so controversial.real fight starters. +hammer +hammer :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :snipersmile: :snipersmile: +hammer
Justaned wrote:
branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Justaned wrote:
fatherfisher wrote:"What was Jesus doing when he spoke those words in John if they didn't pertain to communion? What we Jesus saying?"

First, if Jesus was talking about communion, he sure didn't let on -- since the Lord's Supper had not yet been instituted how would the disciples or the crowd of hearers have made that connection?

But we don't have to wonder what he was saying, because again the context tells us:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. (John 6.32-35)

Those who COME TO HIM and BELIEVE ON HIM shall never hunger or thirst. And he was talking to the people right then and there about coming to him and believing on him right then and there; he was not discussing something which couldn't be done until later after the Lord's Supper had been instituted.
John 6 was the rheotical question the last supper was it's answer.

Let me add and this is something most of us forget, Jesus transcended both the physical realites that limit us and the spiritual realities we know little or nothing of. Was Jesus talking the physical reality of coming up and taking a bit out of him over course not, but he was talking of partaking of Him spiritually something He examplified at the last Supper and something that most miss in communion today.

Today people that should not be sick or die early do because they took communion in an unworthy manner. Likewise many/most of us miss the true blessing that comes when communion is taken with an understanding of it full meaning.

Instead we worry about it becoming too romanized NON SENSE!!!!!!!!!!!

Billy
I see communion as a reaffirmation of every aspect of the New Covenant in which we are partakers. I believe if communion is taken properly we are blessed beyond measure.

1 Corinthians 10:14-22 (NKJV)
14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
18 Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?
19 What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything?
20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons.
21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?

John 6:53-58 (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

From this I can't not see how a Christian can trivialize communion and not take it as a life changing event each and everytime he takes it. I know many call it a memorial as Jesus said "in rememberance of me." But it is more and Paul touched upon it in 1 Cor 11. However I think the full understanding is lost to us since I believe it was passed by tradition from the Apostles, traditions we now disregard and ignore. I think 1 Cor 11 is additional teaching to what the Apostles assumed would be common knowledge within the church since communion was taken so often. To me the answer of understanding of communion comes from the right understanding of John 6:53-58. I believe the apostles had the unrecorded question when will we partake and I believe Jesus response which is also unrecorded was soon. At the Last Supper Jesus used the same words "this is my flesh and my blood" take eat.

No one in their right mind can divorce the two events.

Yes I know to many that seems to put works in the salvation formula. And I say yes it may seem that way but I hold that if at all possible you must be baptized and you must take communion. If not you are not an obedient servant of the most high God.



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Justaned
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

branham1965 wrote:PASTOR
i was raised Roman and Byzantine Catholic.
then i got really saved in my Charismatic Church in 1976.My late Pastor was hated for various reasons.perhaps the biggest was how many of us Catholics went over to his Church.the Diocese was very concerned about him.he openly spoke against the papacy from the pulpit.
may i ask how you celebrate it in your Assembly??thanks.
ive had it in Warren.in the COC,in the Rhema Church here...never at LFAC.
thank ye. :scrambleup:
bibleman wrote:
branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Hi Billy,

Ed can of course speak for himself... But I think Communion is simply a memorial - nothing more and nothing less!
(24) The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 A.D. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Gospel condemns such absurdities, for the Holy Communion is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ (Lk. 22:19-20; Jn. 6:35; 1 Cor. 11:26).Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 824.
Billy
Serving communion is really hard because of all the sides that drawn on the issue. When I serve communion.

I beg the people to allow the Holy Spirit to open the fullness of act of communion to them.

I plead with then not to allow it to become a mere ritual that delays the service and them getting to lunch.

I instruct them in knowing the Blood covenant and that by partaking in communion they become partakers of the covenant.

I tell them to expect a life changing event each and everytime they take communion.

I warn them to not to think to casually of communion or to take it in an unworthy manner for this is the reason some in the Church of Jesus Christ are sick today and why some go home early.

I tell them to pray until the Holy Spirit has dealt with them on communion.

I will not allow an unsaved person or a child too young to fully grasp the significance of the act to take communion.

Lastly I have resolved never to serve communion until I have taken it privately and have myself spiritually where I should be, before i serve communion.

But there is more and I want that more and I know God is leading me to that goal.



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branham1965
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by branham1965 »

I think i understand you Pastor.
where do all these ... views came from??
bibleman wrote:
branham1965 wrote:PASTOR
i was raised Roman and Byzantine Catholic.
then i got really saved in my Charismatic Church in 1976.My late Pastor was hated for various reasons.perhaps the biggest was how many of us Catholics went over to his Church.the Diocese was very concerned about him.he openly spoke against the papacy from the pulpit.
may i ask how you celebrate it in your Assembly??thanks.
ive had it in Warren.in the COC,in the Rhema Church here...never at LFAC.
thank ye. :scrambleup:
bibleman wrote:
branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Hi Billy,

Ed can of course speak for himself... But I think Communion is simply a memorial - nothing more and nothing less!
(24) The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 A.D. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Gospel condemns such absurdities, for the Holy Communion is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ (Lk. 22:19-20; Jn. 6:35; 1 Cor. 11:26).Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 824.
Hi Billy,

We practice communion as Jesus said to do:

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

We practice communion in memory or in memorial. The bread and the wine simply remind us of the sacrifice that Jesus made for our salvation!



User avatar
Justaned
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
Posts: 1938
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by Justaned »

branham1965 wrote:do you believe the ELEMENTS change somehow.im not being a buzzard.i hope you know that.
this is very heated.i know Rome changed it from the Eastern Churches view.
i once fussed with my Uncle Pete on Granny's porch.he said it was the LITERAL Flesh and Blood of the Lord.i said it was not.it could not be this...
Baptism and Communion are so controversial.real fight starters. +hammer +hammer :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :snipersmile: :snipersmile: +hammer
Billy
That dicussion is what I mean when I say we get all tied up in methology. I'm not concerned what takes place physically, although I do treat the communion elements with the upmost respect, holiness and honor.

What I care about is what is taking place spiritually, what has the spirit eaten and what has the spirit drank. If it be mere bread and wine then I would say little was gained. However if the spirit within us partakes as Jesus presented it this is my body broken for you and this is my blood poured in the new covenant then the spiritual refreshing, revivial if you will has taken place.

Jesus said we must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. Communion gives us the spiritual opportunity to do so.



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branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by branham1965 »

:arrow: :arrow:
thank you so much for sharing that.it means so much to me.thank the Lord.
like Reuben's Church you have some very very blessed members there.

Justaned wrote:
branham1965 wrote:PASTOR
i was raised Roman and Byzantine Catholic.
then i got really saved in my Charismatic Church in 1976.My late Pastor was hated for various reasons.perhaps the biggest was how many of us Catholics went over to his Church.the Diocese was very concerned about him.he openly spoke against the papacy from the pulpit.
may i ask how you celebrate it in your Assembly??thanks.
ive had it in Warren.in the COC,in the Rhema Church here...never at LFAC.
thank ye. :scrambleup:
bibleman wrote:
branham1965 wrote:REVED,
what do you believe that holy communion is???
shalom.
Hi Billy,

Ed can of course speak for himself... But I think Communion is simply a memorial - nothing more and nothing less!
(24) The dogma of transubstantiation was decreed by Pope Innocent III in the year 1215 A.D. By this doctrine the priest pretends to perform a daily miracle by changing a wafer into the body of Christ, and then he pretends to eat Him alive in the presence of his people during Mass. The Gospel condemns such absurdities, for the Holy Communion is simply a memorial of the sacrifice of Christ (Lk. 22:19-20; Jn. 6:35; 1 Cor. 11:26).Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 824.
Billy
Serving communion is really hard because of all the sides that drawn on the issue. When I serve communion.

I beg the people to allow the Holy Spirit to open the fullness of act of communion to them.

I plead with then not to allow it to become a mere ritual that delays the service and them getting to lunch.

I instruct them in knowing the Blood covenant and that by partaking in communion they become partakers of the covenant.

I tell them to expect a life changing event each and everytime they take communion.

I warn them to not to think to casually of communion or to take it in an unworthy manner for this is the reason some in the Church of Jesus Christ are sick today and why some go home early.

I tell them to pray until the Holy Spirit has dealt with them on communion.

I will not allow an unsaved person or a child too young to fully grasp the significance of the act to take communion.

Lastly I have resolved never to serve communion until I have taken it privately and have myself spiritually where I should be, before i serve communion.

But there is more and I want that more and I know God is leading me to that goal.



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branham1965
Little Children, Let No Man Deceive You: He that Doeth Righteousness is Righteous, Even as He is Righteous
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Re: head knowledge or hear experience??

Post by branham1965 »

OK REVED
do you believe something happens spiritually in real Holy Communion???
what the Bibleman said here is just incredible.
Justaned wrote:
branham1965 wrote:do you believe the ELEMENTS change somehow.im not being a buzzard.i hope you know that.
this is very heated.i know Rome changed it from the Eastern Churches view.
i once fussed with my Uncle Pete on Granny's porch.he said it was the LITERAL Flesh and Blood of the Lord.i said it was not.it could not be this...
Baptism and Communion are so controversial.real fight starters. +hammer +hammer :2gunfire: :2gunfire: :snipersmile: :snipersmile: +hammer
Billy
That dicussion is what I mean when I say we get all tied up in methology. I'm not concerned what takes place physically, although I do treat the communion elements with the upmost respect, holiness and honor.

What I care about is what is taking place spiritually, what has the spirit eaten and what has the spirit drank. If it be mere bread and wine then I would say little was gained. However if the spirit within us partakes as Jesus presented it this is my body broken for you and this is my blood poured in the new covenant then the spiritual refreshing, revivial if you will has taken place.

Jesus said we must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood. Communion gives us the spiritual opportunity to do so.



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