Dake Bible Discussion BoardScriptures on the Rapture

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Ray

Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by Ray »

dolph wrote:Bibleman is 100% correct with his pre-trib scriptures. Jn 14:1-3; Luke 21:36; 2Thes 2:7; Col. 3:4 are irrefutable.

But not all doctrine can be recapped in one verse, take the trinity, for example.

I feel the Jews return to Israel in 1948 is a huge factor that the post toasties have great trouble explaining in conjunction with Romans C. 9-11 and the fact that God is primarily dealing with Israel in Revelation C.4-19, and that Gabriel's six prophesies are yet to be fulfilled and Isaiah's prophesy that Israel would return a SECOND time.

Secondly, would it not be just a little confusing if the resurrection and the Battle of Armageddon took place on the same day!!!! An administrative nightmare!!! We are talking about hundreds of millions of people many of whom have never seen a gun, a car, cell phone, an airplane, etc, etc.

Seven years would be a perfect amount of time to visit with family and friends, be brought up to par about recent history, correct Bible doctrine, the Church, attend a wedding banquet and get one's assignment for the Battle of Armageddon and one's position/duties for the days following Christ's victory.

Take the Normandy invasion and multiply it's complexity times millions!!

If you wanted to create a mass traffic nightmare schedule hundreds of people rising from the dead, making a U-Turn in the clouds and returning to earth with Christ!
Dolph,
In all honesty, How many of the Jews that returned to Israel in 1948 are the SPIRITUAL children of Abraham? Can you not see that the Scriptures speak of a those who are saints as a Spirtual Israel, A Spiritual Children of Abraham?

Romans 9:7
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


Galatians 4:28
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


Galatians 3:6-7
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


Galatians 3:29
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


Dolph,
1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.



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bibleman
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Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by bibleman »

Justaned wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:
bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:I totally agree the scriptures given only prove that one day we will be with Christ. None prove that they occur before, during or after a tribulation, there is no mention of tribulation in any of them. None provide a timing at all.
Hi Justaned my friend,

The fact that you disagree strengthens my confidence that I am on solid BIBLICAL ground! +wink
Bibleman you get your confidence in weird ways. :crazyeyes: I get my confidence from scripture.

No one can deny that
Matthew 24:30-31 (NKJV)
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
doesn't sound just like
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (NKJV)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
And we know Matthew 24:30-31 is definitely talking of Jesus' return after what Jesus calls the tribulation.

Frankly I believe that blows your whole theory out of the water.
Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "Bibleman you get your confidence in weird ways. I get my confidence from scripture."

That is strange... From reading your post I didn't know you owned a Bible! +goofy

I guess you think God only has one trumpet and only blows it one time?
Unless you supply scitpure that definitely shows Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 events to be two separate events and since they are nearly identical in their description of the event, I would say your theory has absolutely nothing to stand on.
Say what ever you like... But the Bible remains the same.

Matthew 24:30-31 is dealing with the Second Coming as YOUR Assembly of God church teaches.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 is dealing with the Rapture as YOUR Assembly of God church teaches.

Read this and look up the Scripture passages and you will be free from your confusion and misunderstanding of end time events.
Trumpets always sounded at gatherings of Israel (Ex. 19:13-19; Lev. 25:9; 1Sam. 13:3; 2Sam. 2:28).
This trumpet is predicted in Isa. 18:3; 27:13; Zech. 9:14.
This is not the same as the seven trumpets of Rev. 8:2,6 or the trumpets in connection with the resurrection of the righteous (1Th. 4:16; 1Cor. 15:51-58).
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 24".
And people wondered why I warned Ray not to give his affiliations.
I told him they would be used a weapons against him.

You didn't supply any scripture to enhance this discussion instead you tried to use my affilation against me.

Matthew 24 passage and 1 Thess 4 passage are in my opinion detailing the same event using almost identical terms. Nothing in scripture denies that opinion. Nothing in scripture supports your position. So which should I believe? Mine which is based on scripture or yours which is based on what?
Hi Justaned,

It is a shame to see how far you have strayed from the basic tenants of the faith of the Assemblies of God, not to mention the Bible itself.

Has your license been taken away from you yet in the Assemblies of God?


God bless
Leon Bible

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The fault in Bible complications is not with God or the Bible, but with men who refuse to believe what God says and think we have to interpret what He says in order to get the meaning. Dake Bible -Mark 11:17 note

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Justaned
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Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by Justaned »

dolph wrote:Ed, I've never been more serious in my life.

Ray, virtuously none of the "Jews" that have returned to the state of Israel are spiritual children of Abraham. Natural, biological, ethnic Jews who are spiritual children of Abraham are Christians by definition along with people of all other races who have accepted Christ and joined the Church. Jesus was the "seed" of Abraham and believers of all nations are in Him, the Body of Christ. The Jews who returned to the state of Israel are natural Israel who rejected Christ 2,000 years ago and were dispersed to the 4 corners of the world by God, many of which have landed in the new state of Israel by hook or crook because God planned it all this way and they will be saved at the end of the Tribulation when they see the holes in Christ's side and hands, Zech. 13:6, and all Israel will be saved, Rom.11:26.

Understanding Israel is very difficult. I know because I didn't get it until 1 or 2 years ago after struggling over it for over 30 years. Romans C. 9-11 has to be studied, meditated over, prayed over until it all snaps into place.

It's confusing for at least two reasons: Israel is a country AND a race of people; and Israel the race has two sub groups, spiritual Israel (the Church, the remnant, the olive tree), and natural Israel (those who are descendants of Abraham who have not accepted Christ/God). "For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel", "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved", Rom.9:6,27.

So, in all future conversations we continually must signify which Israel we are talking about in every sentence or sink in a swamp of confusion.

Gentile believers in Christ were grafted into the "remnant" of Israel, the Assembly of the wilderness of the Old Testament, the Olive Tree, which became known as the Church after Paul received his revelations from Christ about the new covenant.

Technically, there is only one Israel today and they are the Jews who have not accepted Christ. The other Jews who have accepted Christ are part of the Church along with Hungarians, Mexicans, etc. But people today sometimes refer to the Church as Israel or spiritual Israel because originally the Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel, spiritual Israel, the Olive Tree, which leads to confusion. But Paul referred to 3 people groups: the Church, Israel (natural, unsaved Jews) and the Gentiles.
Dolph
Actually there are four Israels and there is also a group the once were the Children of Israel but have lost all connection to Israel.

So basically 5 groups.

Citizens of Israel born or naturalized they come from many many ethic and religions and from all over the world.

Ethnic Israel those born in of the bllod line of Abraham.

Religious Israel those that practice or follow the teachings of Judaism.

True children of Abraham people who follow father Abraham and now worship Jesus.

The missing tribe Jews that don't know they are jews living somewhere in this world.

What we have in Israel today is all five groups. However nobody thinks of the True children of Abraham as significant as far as prophecy. Yet there are first and foremost in God's sight. Are the other 4 groups a lot of people thinks so but I don't.

First of all why does a person go to lake of fire? Is it sin? or Is it refusal to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? Of course it is the rejection of Jesus.

What did the Jews that did not follow Abraham do? Did they not reject Jesus saying crucify HIm and let HIs blood be on our heads and on the heads of our children?

IF another Jew never got saved God would still have kept his promise to Abraham. Everything promised to Abraham can be seen in those that have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and have been grafted into the lineage of Abraham.

I think what you are missing in prophecy is not what God is doing or going to do in Israel but rather what God is going to do in Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is key not by who controls it by what God is going to do there.

So in that sense and since Jerusalem is presently in the land we now call Israel you have a point. But that can all change with a strike of pen on a map.

Revelation is a book written to the church and it is about people Jew and Gentile but it's focus is on those that have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and those that haven't.



Ray

Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by Ray »

dolph wrote:Ed, I've never been more serious in my life.

Ray, virtuously none of the "Jews" that have returned to the state of Israel are spiritual children of Abraham. Natural, biological, ethnic Jews who are spiritual children of Abraham are Christians by definition along with people of all other races who have accepted Christ and joined the Church. Jesus was the "seed" of Abraham and believers of all nations are in Him, the Body of Christ. The Jews who returned to the state of Israel are natural Israel who rejected Christ 2,000 years ago and were dispersed to the 4 corners of the world by God, many of which have landed in the new state of Israel by hook or crook because God planned it all this way and they will be saved at the end of the Tribulation when they see the holes in Christ's side and hands, Zech. 13:6, and all Israel will be saved, Rom.11:26.

Understanding Israel is very difficult. I know because I didn't get it until 1 or 2 years ago after struggling over it for over 30 years. Romans C. 9-11 has to be studied, meditated over, prayed over until it all snaps into place.

It's confusing for at least two reasons: Israel is a country AND a race of people; and Israel the race has two sub groups, spiritual Israel (the Church, the remnant, the olive tree), and natural Israel (those who are descendants of Abraham who have not accepted Christ/God). "For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel", "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved", Rom.9:6,27.

So, in all future conversations we continually must signify which Israel we are talking about in every sentence or sink in a swamp of confusion.

Gentile believers in Christ were grafted into the "remnant" of Israel, the Assembly of the wilderness of the Old Testament, the Olive Tree, which became known as the Church after Paul received his revelations from Christ about the new covenant.

Technically, there is only one Israel today and they are the Jews who have not accepted Christ. The other Jews who have accepted Christ are part of the Church along with Hungarians, Mexicans, etc. But people today sometimes refer to the Church as Israel or spiritual Israel because originally the Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel, spiritual Israel, the Olive Tree, which leads to confusion. But Paul referred to 3 people groups: the Church, Israel (natural, unsaved Jews) and the Gentiles.
Dolph,
Above you mention
"It's confusing for at least two reasons: Israel is a country AND a race of people; and Israel the race has two sub groups, spiritual Israel (the Church, the remnant, the olive tree), and natural Israel (those who are descendants of Abraham who have not accepted Christ/God). "For they are not all Israel, who are of Israel", "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved", Rom.9:6,27."

I think you'll agree that the saved Gentiles, and the Remnant of the nation of Israel make up the Olive Tree of Romans Ch.11.Which is also Spiritual Israel.

This Ch.11 in Romans Clearly speaks of a Remnant of the nation of Israel as part of this Spiritual Israel (the Olive Tree)who Paul is part of as he mentions GOD has not forgotten HIS people as he was of the nation of Israel.
Paul also here speaks of the Grafted in Gentiles who are part of this Spiritual Israel (the Olive Tree).

As Paul in this Ch.11 brings across this Olive Tree made up of a Remnant of the nation of Israel (a remnant shall be saved) and grafted in Gentiles who both together make up Spiritual Israel.

In this very Ch.11 were Spiritual Israel is Clearly Defined and Paul states:
"and so (in like manner) all Israel shall be saved."

Why don't you believe this Spiritual Israel is The Israel Paul is speaking of when he said "and so all Israel shall be saved"?



Ray

Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by Ray »

dolph wrote:Ray, all Israel will be (future) saved WHEN the fulness of the Church comes in.(when the last person is saved before the Lord's return.

Obviously,Paul is talking about unsaved Israel because they are not saved yet, but will be saved at the 2nd advent, v.26.

Ray, I am sincerely trying to help you, so stay with it til you get it. Peace.
Dolph,
Neither all who will make up Spiritual Israel have been saved yet.



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Justaned
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Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by Justaned »

dolph wrote:Ray, all Israel will be (future) saved WHEN the fulness of the Church comes in.(when the last person is saved before the Lord's return.

Obviously,Paul is talking about unsaved Israel because they are not saved yet, but will be saved at the 2nd advent, v.26.

Ray, I am sincerely trying to help you, so stay with it til you get it. Peace.
Dolph
Romans 11:26 doesn't say
all Israel will be (future) saved WHEN the fulness of the Church comes in.(when the last person is saved before the Lord's return.
Read what it says
Romans 11:26 (NKJV)
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
It is saying Israel is blinded and as the gentiles are save so all of Israel ( those that follow Christ) will be saved.



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Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by NineCrows »

dolph wrote:Bibleman is 100% correct with his pre-trib scriptures. Jn 14:1-3; Luke 21:36; 2Thes 2:7; Col. 3:4 are irrefutable.

But not all doctrine can be recapped in one verse, take the trinity, for example.

I feel the Jews return to Israel in 1948 is a huge factor that the post toasties have great trouble explaining in conjunction with Romans C. 9-11 and the fact that God is primarily dealing with Israel in Revelation C.4-19, and that Gabriel's six prophesies are yet to be fulfilled and Isaiah's prophesy that Israel would return a SECOND time.

Secondly, would it not be just a little confusing if the resurrection and the Battle of Armageddon took place on the same day!!!! An administrative nightmare!!! We are talking about hundreds of millions of people many of whom have never seen a gun, a car, cell phone, an airplane, etc, etc.

Seven years would be a perfect amount of time to visit with family and friends, be brought up to par about recent history, correct Bible doctrine, the Church, attend a wedding banquet and get one's assignment for the Battle of Armageddon and one's position/duties for the days following Christ's victory.

Take the Normandy invasion and multiply it's complexity times millions!!

If you wanted to create a mass traffic nightmare schedule hundreds of people rising from the dead, making a U-Turn in the clouds and returning to earth with Christ!
Brother Dolph,
I've had a busy week and am a bit behind, but I couldnt let this go without a comment. Contrary to what you say, the Trinity CAN be shown from a single passage: Mark 1:10-12. Also, all four of your 'irrefutable' proof texts for the rapture doctrine have exegetical issues for your perspective. A couple of examples: for the passage in John chapter 14, take a look at the end of chapter 13. The context of Jesus's comment is that His disciples shall follow Him in DEATH, and then shall be where He is-not that they will be raptured. The verse in Colossions is part of a discourse on how we have ALREADY died and been resurrected with Christ-in other words on our position with Christ NOW. The question on the verse in Luke is to whom this is addressed. Luke 21:32 makes this crystal clear (the generation that Jesus is speaking to), though some try to twist the simple meaning of this verse. I have some ideas on the 1st Thessalonians verse, but that would open up a WHOLE new issue... :rainbow1: The point is this, though: if you look at the TEXT, and not at someone's comments on the text, you tend to see things a bit differently than those from your perspective see them. It is impossible to teach the modern rapture view of eschatology from a single verse or pasage, because there is NO clear Biblical reason for the verses to be jumbled together the way that they are, when they are used to proof text this doctrine. If you notce from previous posts, those of us who disagree with this doctrine quote the Bible, and don't have to rely on extra-Biblical sources or arguments to support our views. I think that it's kind of ironic that when we use the Bible in our responses, those who disagree with us simply say that we don't know the Bible, rather than respond to the Scriptures that we've used.


LORD, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Mark 9:24.

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Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by branham1965 »

pardon me for butting in Nine Crows.but i dont think its a stretch to say this is NEVER EVER going to be resolved on here.i respect you and Ray....and of course REVED.i think you guys are bright,devout and represent your positions quite well.its just not going to fly here.not on the Dake Bible board.this board is dedicated to him and his memory.obviously he is quite loved.i know i love the man.
but dont quit posting and exegeting-is that a word +goofy i like the debates.
NineCrows wrote:
dolph wrote:Bibleman is 100% correct with his pre-trib scriptures. Jn 14:1-3; Luke 21:36; 2Thes 2:7; Col. 3:4 are irrefutable.

But not all doctrine can be recapped in one verse, take the trinity, for example.

I feel the Jews return to Israel in 1948 is a huge factor that the post toasties have great trouble explaining in conjunction with Romans C. 9-11 and the fact that God is primarily dealing with Israel in Revelation C.4-19, and that Gabriel's six prophesies are yet to be fulfilled and Isaiah's prophesy that Israel would return a SECOND time.

Secondly, would it not be just a little confusing if the resurrection and the Battle of Armageddon took place on the same day!!!! An administrative nightmare!!! We are talking about hundreds of millions of people many of whom have never seen a gun, a car, cell phone, an airplane, etc, etc.

Seven years would be a perfect amount of time to visit with family and friends, be brought up to par about recent history, correct Bible doctrine, the Church, attend a wedding banquet and get one's assignment for the Battle of Armageddon and one's position/duties for the days following Christ's victory.

Take the Normandy invasion and multiply it's complexity times millions!!

If you wanted to create a mass traffic nightmare schedule hundreds of people rising from the dead, making a U-Turn in the clouds and returning to earth with Christ!
Brother Dolph,
I've had a busy week and am a bit behind, but I couldnt let this go without a comment. Contrary to what you say, the Trinity CAN be shown from a single passage: Mark 1:10-12. Also, all four of your 'irrefutable' proof texts for the rapture doctrine have exegetical issues for your perspective. A couple of examples: for the passage in John chapter 14, take a look at the end of chapter 13. The context of Jesus's comment is that His disciples shall follow Him in DEATH, and then shall be where He is-not that they will be raptured. The verse in Colossions is part of a discourse on how we have ALREADY died and been resurrected with Christ-in other words on our position with Christ NOW. The question on the verse in Luke is to whom this is addressed. Luke 21:32 makes this crystal clear (the generation that Jesus is speaking to), though some try to twist the simple meaning of this verse. I have some ideas on the 1st Thessalonians verse, but that would open up a WHOLE new issue... :rainbow1: The point is this, though: if you look at the TEXT, and not at someone's comments on the text, you tend to see things a bit differently than those from your perspective see them. It is impossible to teach the modern rapture view of eschatology from a single verse or pasage, because there is NO clear Biblical reason for the verses to be jumbled together the way that they are, when they are used to proof text this doctrine. If you notce from previous posts, those of us who disagree with this doctrine quote the Bible, and don't have to rely on extra-Biblical sources or arguments to support our views. I think that it's kind of ironic that when we use the Bible in our responses, those who disagree with us simply say that we don't know the Bible, rather than respond to the Scriptures that we've used.



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Re: Scriptures on the Rapture

Post by NineCrows »

branham1965 wrote:pardon me for butting in Nine Crows.but i dont think its a stretch to say this is NEVER EVER going to be resolved on here.i respect you and Ray....and of course REVED.i think you guys are bright,devout and represent your positions quite well.its just not going to fly here.not on the Dake Bible board.this board is dedicated to him and his memory.obviously he is quite loved.i know i love the man.
but dont quit posting and exegeting-is that a word +goofy i like the debates.
NineCrows wrote:
dolph wrote:Bibleman is 100% correct with his pre-trib scriptures. Jn 14:1-3; Luke 21:36; 2Thes 2:7; Col. 3:4 are irrefutable.

But not all doctrine can be recapped in one verse, take the trinity, for example.

I feel the Jews return to Israel in 1948 is a huge factor that the post toasties have great trouble explaining in conjunction with Romans C. 9-11 and the fact that God is primarily dealing with Israel in Revelation C.4-19, and that Gabriel's six prophesies are yet to be fulfilled and Isaiah's prophesy that Israel would return a SECOND time.

Secondly, would it not be just a little confusing if the resurrection and the Battle of Armageddon took place on the same day!!!! An administrative nightmare!!! We are talking about hundreds of millions of people many of whom have never seen a gun, a car, cell phone, an airplane, etc, etc.

Seven years would be a perfect amount of time to visit with family and friends, be brought up to par about recent history, correct Bible doctrine, the Church, attend a wedding banquet and get one's assignment for the Battle of Armageddon and one's position/duties for the days following Christ's victory.

Take the Normandy invasion and multiply it's complexity times millions!!

If you wanted to create a mass traffic nightmare schedule hundreds of people rising from the dead, making a U-Turn in the clouds and returning to earth with Christ!
Brother Dolph,
I've had a busy week and am a bit behind, but I couldnt let this go without a comment. Contrary to what you say, the Trinity CAN be shown from a single passage: Mark 1:10-12. Also, all four of your 'irrefutable' proof texts for the rapture doctrine have exegetical issues for your perspective. A couple of examples: for the passage in John chapter 14, take a look at the end of chapter 13. The context of Jesus's comment is that His disciples shall follow Him in DEATH, and then shall be where He is-not that they will be raptured. The verse in Colossions is part of a discourse on how we have ALREADY died and been resurrected with Christ-in other words on our position with Christ NOW. The question on the verse in Luke is to whom this is addressed. Luke 21:32 makes this crystal clear (the generation that Jesus is speaking to), though some try to twist the simple meaning of this verse. I have some ideas on the 1st Thessalonians verse, but that would open up a WHOLE new issue... :rainbow1: The point is this, though: if you look at the TEXT, and not at someone's comments on the text, you tend to see things a bit differently than those from your perspective see them. It is impossible to teach the modern rapture view of eschatology from a single verse or pasage, because there is NO clear Biblical reason for the verses to be jumbled together the way that they are, when they are used to proof text this doctrine. If you notce from previous posts, those of us who disagree with this doctrine quote the Bible, and don't have to rely on extra-Biblical sources or arguments to support our views. I think that it's kind of ironic that when we use the Bible in our responses, those who disagree with us simply say that we don't know the Bible, rather than respond to the Scriptures that we've used.
Thanks, Brother.
I agree that we're probably never going to agree, and that's OK. :smilecolros: You're absolutley correct that those who respect Rev. Dake are not very likely to agree with a position other than his (though as I've said many times I have nothing but respect for him, as well). I also enjoy these discussions (debates :smile: ). I think discussions amongst the Brethren are a good thing, as long as we're staying within Biblically justifiable bounds. This is one of the reasons that I look forward to catching up with the discussions on this board each week. Have a great holiday weekend.


LORD, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Mark 9:24.

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